Donnie Darko
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LiveForChange:
Right. Why didn't the artifact close the rift the first time? Because this was a rift INTO the tangent universe, not out of it. Remember, this are two entirely seperate universes - we can't compare them with terms such as "first time". This artifact appears BECAUSE a tangent universe has occured. Where it came from turns us head first in to a paradox which, as I've said, are unavoidable in time travel films. Who sent it - up to you. "Divine Intervention is deemed the only logical conclusion for the appearance of the artifact." Obviously Richard Kelly doesn't know, so that's open to the audience I think.
Oh, and something I keep meaning to say - if you don't think returning the artifact to the primary universe closes the rift, then what exactly is the point in the entire film? What did Donnie actually DO?
I'm starting to realise that the point in arguing all of this is never to win - it's to highlight the problems in each of our ideas, which let's face it, there are many of. I've got to be honest and say that since posting these messages I've began realising my own theory is inconsistent, and maybe there entirely different ways of looking at this film which still hold up to as much of scrutiny as my own. It's just scary to think that I have no idea what the hell happens in my favourite film.
>>By -Ronald- (Wednesday, 5 May 2004 00:15)
Ronald
By rift they mean jet enginge entering the universe?i tho rift occured in 4th dimension...and if this is true then how did artifact closed primary universe?It also just entered it and never went out of it.
Rift is being closed by artifact sent back to primary universe or by Donnie's death....i guess it depends what created the rift.
I don't think artifact oppears because tangent universe occured.....tangent universe is primary that went wrong.So,it's more like tangent universe occured because of rift in 4th domension or because artifact appeared.
And the jet must have came from somewhere,we can't just put everything we don't understand in paradox.It could be brought there by Donnie which is not possible since he sent it back to primary and not tangent......only if......and here i would agree with high lander theory.It ripped of by itself and it went into the tangent universe.Donnie knew it and he went back there into the bed to push into the primary where it kills him.This way he would also change the destiny because at beggining of the movie jet engine crashes the house in tangent universe where he left the house..by going into tangent universe while Donnie 2 is on golf place he didn't let it crash it down but he sent it back to primary universe where it kills primary him.But that leaves us with question why did Donnie have to die if he could happily live in primary universe since tangent universe was closed and nobody was in danger anymore.
And also...
I know that at the end of the movie it was primary universe where Donnie died...but when did tangent universe start?October 2.....and engine fall down after October 2 so it kinda means that it wasn't engine that caused the rift in 4th dimension because tangent universe started before engine fall down.So,did engine fall down because tangent universe started(like u said)....because Frank woke up Donnie(like i said)....like we said?And also if u noticed,jet engine at the end of the movie falls down at the same time as at beginning of the movie.His father is watching TV and his sister just came home but that all happend after October 2 started.So,Donnie didn't even move jet engine to the primary universe,he just stayed in bed and let it kill him(and that would leave us with my theory that Donnie's death closed the rift).
>>By LiveForChange (Wednesday, 5 May 2004 03:24)
Ronald and Live For Change
This debate has become a bit of a mess..after reading the last few posts ive become more confused than ever.
why dont we stick to specific points .. i think it would help matters a bit.
First off...what caused the rift in the first place...and what fixes it?
my belief is that its totally unconnected to anything..just a random event which happens from time to time.
Donnie was chosen to fix it.
and guiding the artifact through the portal fixes it.
And Donnie dying at the end..he woke up and thought he had just dreamt it all..hence the manical laughter...and had no idea that a jet engine was going to fall on him. (but having said that..if it were me..i would have got out of bed... pdq...just in case)
Therefore MD.Frank had no purpose other than to guide Donnie...he didn't manipulate anything.
All events happened as they happened...If you take it that Donnie has to kill Frank...then all events must happen in the order as they happened...so where's the manipulation?
To Ronald here...you say that time ceases to have relevance if you talk about time travel..
And i see what your getting at...it creates an impossible paradox...in a way your right...there is no first time...because if Frank travelled back in time...he was always there.
But remains the question...why?? what does his overall purpose serve...if he was always there it all becomes pointless...all the events would happen and the universe wouldn't collapse.
So to clarify this...when i say words like previously, before and first time...i really mean in another tangent universe where events happened exactly as we saw in the movie but the ending was different...Donnie didn't fix it...Because Frank wasn't there to guide him...the universe was on the verge of collapse and God (if u like) sent Frank back in time to help Donnie... creating another tangent universe where events play out in the exact same order as the (first time)...except this time Donnie did fix it...you see...GET IT? ...
its just easier to say previously, before and first time. as im sure you'll appreciate..
im sorry i didn't clarify this earlier but i just assumed everyone would get that!
>>By highlander III (Wednesday, 5 May 2004 11:24)
I'm definitely with you on the sticking to specific points deal. So, from your first point:
my belief is that its totally unconnected to anything..just a random event which happens from time to time.
Donnie was chosen to fix it.
and guiding the artifact through the portal fixes it.
With you 100% there. That's what I was trying to say before but I think you put it simpler than I did. I don't know about it all being a dream for two reasons - 1) In the deleted scene (sorry) and original script (sorry), he is still smiling as he get's impaled, and has a slight smirk when he's dead. 2) A post I read ages ago, which basically proposed that if the ML remember some stuff (being proportional to how close they were to Donnie) then it's seems logical to say that Donnie himself would remember everything.
Secondly, there is one thing I'm getting more sure of. Donnie MUST have ripped the engine of OR guided it to the portal once it had. Otherwise, there is simply no point in him being the Living Reciever. As I've said before, the plane would have been there anyway so if the portal itself did all the work then Donnie is redundant. Frank could just turn up and say 'there's some nasty shit happening, but don't worry it'll be allright. Just lay low for a month.'
The only alternative to this is that Donnie was destined to die and it is this that sorts it all out. But I DON'T believe Donnie travelled back in time, and his mission was "to guide the artifact in to position for it's journey back to the primary universe". Sorry to quote from TPOTT again, but seeing as these are the only two options I can see, I'm gonna go with the book. It just makes more sense.
I just thought of another good reason why Donnie's Death can't close the rift. After reading a few old posts, I think everyone's fairly agreed that Roberta Sparrow most likely was a Living Reciever herself, but the conditions of her mission meant that returning the artifact didn't kill her. So if it worked then without her dying......
About the whole paradox thing - you remember the end of Terminator where it turned out that finding Arnie's arm actually provided Cybertech (or whatever it was called) with the necessary technology to start the whole thing? So we're left with the question - where did the original technology come from? It's exactly the same with MD Frank - he needs to already be dead to wake Donnie up so he can kill him. A sort of chicken and egg thing. Now this DOES leave us with a paradox, but having studied these things, it turns out it's not actually impossible and doesn't break any laws of physics for these things to happen. It's just REALLY frustrating because you can't get your head around it. This is the point I've been trying to make with the 'firsts' and 'previously's' - there WAS no 'first run through' of the tangent universe where Donnie didn't wake up and Frank didn't die - it just IS that way. And, Highlander, this is why I don't think things would have been the same if Frank wasn't there. I think that theory rests on the stuff I've just discussed. Donnie WOULDNT kill Frank if he wasn't guided by MD Frank, because of this stuff - and also cause that renders Frank pointless.
I know this all relies on some deep stuff, and I understand if your not willing to go along with it. I just thought I should explain that cause it's been confusing you guys (understandably) for a while.
Phew! :)
>>By -Ronald- (Wednesday, 5 May 2004 16:31)
hi, think everything everyone is saying is great, Im from England and I loved the movie. Can someone tell me what their views are on the morality of this film, what critique is being made here? please! thankyou!
>>By Mowgli (Wednesday, 5 May 2004 17:41)
Highlander
There couldn't be more then one tangent universe because if the first one would go wrong everything would collapse(tangent and primary universe) and nobody would be able to create 2nd one which fixes the first one because there wouldn't be primary one anymore.
>>By LiveForChange (Thursday, 6 May 2004 00:26)
Ronald
Roberta Sparrow couldn't be living receivor because when she left the church over night(which could mean there was a tangent universe) no object ever fall down.What would close tangent universe then?Her writting the book...?And i think there were also other reasons discussed here why she couldn't be one...
I think i'll go with paradox about Frank cause it just doesn't make sence....exactly,checken and egg is the answer.
What was i trying to say that the jet engine fell down at the end of the movie in exactly same time as at beginning.So,why didn't it close the tangent universe in beginning?You say because at the beginning it fell down in tangent universe and at the end of the movie into primary....but realise that the jet engine that fell at the beginning is the one that Donnie later on sends down.So,the only difference now is that Donnie dies...nothing else.And that's why i'm saying that Donnie's death had to mean something.
>>By LiveForChange (Thursday, 6 May 2004 00:48)
you silly people. you could spend the rest of your lives arguing the logic behind this movie. it amuses me.
>>By SoulSlave (Thursday, 6 May 2004 05:53)
live for change
what im saying is...that all the events happened before...but Donnie didn't fix it...and remember we are talking time travel here... so how could the universe collapse if it hadn't happened yet?
Frank was sent back in time to guide Donnie..so no the universe didn't collapse because before that happened ...Donnie fixed it...sort of like a time loop. each tangent replacing the other until it gets fixed.
in fact there could have been a million tangents...how can you prove otherewise..the answer is you cant...remember in this context time is completely meaningless...hence the name "tangent universe"
But to suggest that you know for a fact that there was only one tangent universe is ludicrous!
>>By highlander III (Thursday, 6 May 2004 07:45)
Ronald
You keep harking back to "original scripts" "other material" " deleted scenes"
In the hope of burying this...can i put it to you like this...
Every single piece of literature thats ever been published...every single movie thats ever been made..would obviously have many draughts..."original scripts"..."deleted scenes"...from shakespeare to copolla...but the finished article is what counts...the authors / directors while putting it together will delete / add material accordingly ...whatever is best for the story...to make the story work better...its called a work in progress...and has no bearing on the finished article!
Richard Kelly honed the script and then the movie to tell the story that way...he did that for a very good reason...that was the story he wanted to tell. that was the way it worked best!!
And i would think that the best time to make that decision would be when you are actually working on it...while its fresh on your mind...not 3 years later!
You are representing your argument using to many .."and Richard Kelly said this"..please stop it.
Its like you think you know him personally or something :)
you dont know him ..i take it?
therefore you dont know his motivation for saying whatever he's been saying!
so please stick to the facts!
>>By highlander III (Thursday, 6 May 2004 08:29)
Soul Slave
from one of the silly people.
it amuses me to amuse you!
>>By highlander III (Thursday, 6 May 2004 08:35)
LiveForChange:
You say that Donnie's death is the only difference between the beginning and end, but it's not. The jet engine falls in the TANGENT universe - whether we can say it did similtaneously in the primary universe and everything played out like the tangent is redundant. We have no evidence that there is ANYTHING going on in the primary universe at this time. Remember, if Donnie hadn't died in the primary, it wouldn't have destroyed THAT universe - the only reason the tangent universe needs sorting is because they only last a month anyway. There's no getting around that whatever you do. All that needs to happen is to make sure the black hole doesn't spill over in to the primary by sending the artifact back there. And think about it - we agree that the rewind scene is the artifact travelling back and the tangent universe undoing - so if we see Donnie die AFTER that, surely everything's all sorted already?
PS Artifacts aren't specific in size, are they?
Highlander:
I know we should bury this, and if any of my theory's rely on them we'll have to agree to disagree. But if you ask specifically why I believe something I kind of have to refer to them. It is, after all, only your opinion that they shouldn't be relied on so I'm still happy to do it myself. I think, seeing as without time constraints the deleted scenes would have appeared in the finished article that they have validity. I'm afraid you can't change my mind on that. For anything that relies on them, I'll point out that they do and invite you to disregard them.
My 'Frank Paradox' idea doesn't though, and I'm interested to see what you think of that.
SoulSlave:
Seeing as I'm only here for about 10 minutes a day, I don't think it's consumed my life or anything. I think discussing a movie as great as this for the rest of my life is a better way to spend it than most. :)
>>By -Ronald- (Thursday, 6 May 2004 16:42)
PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THE MORALITY CRITIQUE IN THE FILM!! I want to pick your brains on this one as I possibly may use the information in a study I am doing,
>>By Mowgli (Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:16)
Ronald
Yeah i agree Donnie definately guided the artifact through to the primary universe, which in itself implies that it cant just fall through. it broke off the plane...falling into the tangent through the portal and Donnie using his powers changed its direction and pushed it back to the primary. and that fixes the problem by closing the rip... so therefore Donnies death is incidental. and makes no difference to the outcome.
And Ronald what are you saying there...that you've studied time travel ?.. sorry mate but i didn't realize it was an exact science?!
chicken and egg... well thats what i was getting at in my earlier post...when im describing tangent universes.
the events are played out until the black hole is about to desroy the universe. but just before the whole universe collapses...Frank is sent back to help Donnie fix it...
and this wipes out the previous tangent...and so on until the problem is fixed.
So by looking at it in that way you can "get your head around it"
But somewhere in time it happened first with no M.D Frank...but was erased by Frank travelling back in time.
And what makes you so sure that the rewind scene is representative of the artifacts journey back to the primary...it could just as easily be caused by the black hole. as an effect of its presence.
Not saying your wrong but perhaps your being a bit dogmatic there.
>>By highlander III (Friday, 7 May 2004 05:29)
you are all very highly intelligent and perceptive people, therefore can someone offer their views on the morality of this film, the point behind it all I think is bound up with a morality critique, do you agree/ disagree?
please reply someone
xxx
>>By Mowgli (Friday, 7 May 2004 12:16)
well Mowgli, why dont you start the ball rolling and give us your take on the morality behind the movie?
then you will most likely get some feedback!
>>By highlander III (Saturday, 8 May 2004 07:35)
All I can saw is that this story was well thoguht out, a classic masterpiece in my eyes (my eyes dont have 20/20 vision)
>>By NirvanaKid784 (Saturday, 8 May 2004 21:29)
hey, why does Frank make Donnie write "they made me do it" on the cement?
>>By SoulSlave (Sunday, 9 May 2004 07:30)
Just a thought. After reading sooooo many responses/reviews/etc. I find many things to be confusing and the most confusign thought I've had is as follows. If Donnie knew about the chain of events that can happen if he remains in his bed when the engine falls in his room then why doesnt he try to change things, from as early on as notf flooding the school and meeting gretchen to even not leaving the party, I mean then he is able to change the future is he not??
unless its the fact that he believes that there is so much more after death and once he dies like Frank he can then travel through time once a portal opens up......
-dazed and confused
>>By dunlow (Sunday, 9 May 2004 08:52)
good question soul slave and another strange one. in the cinema scene...why does Frank say when asked by donnie why he was called frank..." its the name of my father and his father before me"..... wtf?
>>By highlander III (Sunday, 9 May 2004 15:59)
the only thing i didnt really understand was why donnie decided it would be best to kill frank and in doing so killing himself when the engine crashed in his room. If he was trying to fix everything and make a better world it would have been better for him to stay alive. by dieing his girlfriend would be harrassed by the stupid druggies and wouldnt have any were to go when her mom dissapears. Also when donnie dies im sure the chinese girl would be devistated and no one other than donnie ever did onething to support her and lastly his family will be perminetly hurt from as death and they'd never be the same. O and the stupid Fear guy would never be expossed as the perverted sicko he is.
>>By Billy Pilgrim (Sunday, 9 May 2004 21:42)
Billy PIlgrim, all those points are so true, I've gotten to that point as well and I think it's becuase I am overanalysing the movie as you are, let's stop the overthinking and let the movie stand on its own with its utmost perfection.
>>By dunlow (Monday, 10 May 2004 00:58)
very nicely done. but i still wanna know so much.....
>>By SoulSlave (Monday, 10 May 2004 04:00)
First of all, Mowgli... you sound like you're writing an essay on this and you want us to do your work for you. Why not present an opinion on the morality of the film and ask for critiques? You'll still get our opinions, but you'll be doing some work.
There have been some questions lately about why Donnie chooses to remain in bed when he knows that the engine is going to kill him. After all, he knows his own destiny, and there is nothing to stop him from choosing to live and then living his life differently than before. I think I have an explanation, and it goes back to Roberta Sparrow.
I believe that RS is a guide character for Donnie, and that she is largely responsible for his decision to sacrifice himself. The hero in his quest often requires helper or guide figures. The science teacher gives Donnie RS's book, his English teacher clues him in to cellar doors, Frank literally guides him, etc. Roberta Sparrow is a guide figure, most obviously because she literally wrote the book on time travel that Donnie reads. From the amount of knowledge that she has of moving in time, the chest projections, etc., it sounds like she knows exactly what Donnie is going through.
My theory on this is that RS used to be in the same position as Donnie--a living receiver, hero, ordinary person chosen by God, whatever you want to call it--but that she chose to live at the end when it was her fate to die. That would account for her sudden conversion from religion to science. She chose to dismiss God and his intended channel for her, and to assert her freedom of choice by living on after her time was up. Because she remembered everything, she was able to write a book about it.
Ok, then, but why does she keep checking her mailbox? Well, the science teacher tells Donnie that seeing your destiny gives you the option of changing it. Donnie disagrees vehemently, arguing that you cannot change your destiny if you're following God's channel. RS breaks out of God's channel after completing her part in saving the world, but it's almost like she becomes stuck in an endlessly repeating loop later in life when she keeps checking her mailbox. In doing so, she becomes part of God's channel for Donnie, as she is responsible for causing Frank to swerve and kill Gretchen. While she tries to assert her free will by choosing to live, she is still unable to escape God's channel.
The words she says to Donnie are crucial. "Every creature on this earth dies alone." Roberta Sparrow chose to stay alive to make a difference, probably to save the people whose destinies she now knew. Yet, in the end, she is a lonely old woman whom people have stopped visiting. The endless checking of the mailbox only emphasizes her solitude. Her words to Donnie tell him the futility of trying to control fate to keep those you love alive. In the end, everyone dies alone.
I believe that the words she whispered to Donnie are the main reason why he chooses to stay within God's channel and die like he was supposed to. If he had no foreknowledge of the engine, then he couldn't be expected to evade it, and so he was meant to die then. Sure, he could have escaped and lived, and then tried to make sure that things turned out better, but what's the point if he's just going to die alone anyway? RS's words gave him the strength to sacrifice his life so that Gretchen, his mother, sister, Frank, etc. could live.
And there's no doubt that his was a big sacrifice. He never got to know Gretchen, never got to say goodbye to anyone he loved, never made things right with his family. He had just recently called his sister a fuckass and his mother a bitch. He never got to make it up to them, to play on the trampoline with his little sister, etc. Donnie chose to die knowing that he was leaving at the worst time for him but the best time for everyone else. I think it's so beautiful and powerful that he died laughing. It made perfect sense to me. He was overcome with the complexity of life and fate, and he fully realized how much of a sacrifice he was making, but he knew at the same time that his sacrifice would prevent others from dying. Faced with the complexity and absurdity of life, he laughed. What else could you do? His laughter is mostly of the things-are-so-fucked-up-you-just-have-to-laugh variety, but I feel that it's touched by a genuine happiness from the knowledge that things will turn out better for everyone else this time.
>>By arthurdental (Monday, 10 May 2004 06:11)
I like that - arthurdental.
>>By dunlow (Monday, 10 May 2004 08:04)
Ok I get all the stuff about Tangent Universe, Manipulated, Receivers etc etc.....and i agree with it all, it makes sense, but there are a few things on Donnie Darko website and in film I dont get........
Roberta Sparrow dies on 25th Dec....Christs birthday
she swaps jobs from nun to teacher at 33.......christs age when he died
when donnie and gretch leave cinema it says "last temptation of christ"
.....
and finally on the punks locker it says ......"what would satan do"..or something similar......
are all these religious lonks purely a coincidence?? just for added mystery or am i missing something here.......
cheers
xxx
>>By RSparrow (Monday, 10 May 2004 18:32)
Haha! im so busted, yeah im writing my dissertation on the manipulation of time in fiction as a vehicle for a morality critique (or something along those lines!) Im studying Times Arrow (Martin Amis), The Time Machine (HG Wells), Minority Report (Phillip K. Dick, this one's about the projection of consciousness into the future), Donnie Darko and lots more! All are bound up with ideas of fate vs free will or a mixture of both, and all use time travel in some format as a vehicle to critque society or th morality of human beings. I think that everyone is ignoring this mathardi guy who seems to have actually worked on the film. While I do think all art is open to interpretation and that is the beauty of it I do think perhaps in discussing we should try and solve this "irddle" Mathardi is talking about in saying the film is alot simpler than anyone thinks. he said austin is the closest who spoke about Donnie dying at the very beginning of the film, the whole tangent universe is his afterlife concept. Perhaps something to do with gretchen's words of taking all the bad things in your life and replacing them with good, this I definitely think is one of the key concepts in the film. obviously time travel, alternate universes coinincide with that. Is that better for you highlander III and arthur dental?
please reply, i promise not to be so lazy in future i am a very naughty girl!haha!
mowgli
xx
>>By Mowgli (Monday, 10 May 2004 21:09)
I saw the movie for the first time yesterday having had it since xmas. I'm usually very busy but did my back in and had some time off work without kids. Really enjoyed it and then had to find out what it all meant. Your previous discussions helped, as did the official site. All theories have been discussed to the 'enth degree so won't add my musings. I re-read "The Destructors" by Graham Greene this morning to see if this added anything (the nickname I have used is the collections of his stories in which it appears). I thought that there must have been some reason for it being used in the film.
I think it helps with the "why is Donnie laughing at the end?" question. The story involves a gang of kids in wartime London destroying a building belonging to an old man called Mr Thomas (they call him Old Misery) which stands alone among others which have been destroyed by the blitz. They pull down the structure by tieing a truck to the last wooden strut holding up the mortarless walls. The end of the story runs thus:
"How dare you laugh", Mr Thomas said. "It was my house. My house."
"I'm sorry," the driver said, making heroic efforts, but when he rembered the sudden check of his lorry, the crash of bricks falling, he became convulsed again. One moment the house had stood there with such dignity between the bomb-sites like a man in a top hat, and then, bang, crash, there wasn't anything left - not anything. He said, "I'm sorry. I cant help it, Mr Thomas. There's nothing personal, but you got to admit it's funny."
There is certainly a parallel between this and Donnie as he waits for the engine to fall.
Another interesting passage is touched on in classroom scene in the film.
"Streaks of light came in through the closed shutters where they worked with the seriousness of creators - and destruction after all is a form of creation. A kind of imagination had seen this house as it had now become."
Over to you......
>>By twenty-one stories (Saturday, 15 May 2004 13:34)
Over bloody complicated for the sake of it. Just another spin on an alternative universe theory. That's all. I'd rather go with the simple "uncomplicated" idea which is the series 'Sliders'
Pluck a theory from the air: A pepsi coke can is the real universe and some no-mark accidently decants an inferior "happy shopper" cola into it. A passer by , "with manipulated taste buds" enjoys the cola and creates a singularity, forcing an uncomplicated Stephen Hawkins to rewrite is book " A brief beverage in time"
Despite what I've said I did enjoy the film immensly, but for different reasons.
The energy created in debating Donnie Darko could of powered a small town.
>>By Trankmast (Tuesday, 18 May 2004 23:22)
On a more practical note, I just found out that there will be a special director's cut of Donnie Darko premiering at the Seattle Film Festival, this May 29th. Should be awesome.
In addition, they'll be re-releasing it in select Seattle theaters, so anyone in or near the Seattle area will be in for a treat! I'm jealous since I'm nowhere near Seattle right now, but I thought I'd pass that info along to you guys.
>>By DarkMan2000 (Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:44)
The discussion board is currently closed.
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