Donnie Darko
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Gretchen is an manipulated dead, everybody who dies in the tangented universe are manipulated deads.. It says so in the philosophy of time travel.
okay the walrus, I'll play nice!
>>By Gretchen (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 19:04)
Gretchen as manipulated dead never showed up,the only Gretchen that was there was tangent one.Manipulated dead gretchen was propably sleeping;)....Gretchen that was in movie wasn't manipulated dead one.so tough...haha
>>By LiveForChange (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 00:02)
Hey, thanks Gretchen. Say, does Richard Kelly have anything else in the works? 'Cause after this movie, he pretty much dropped off the map.
And, no, I don't wanna f**k my family...that's gross.
>>By The Walrus (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 16:46)
I believe his next movie is called "Knowing". It's about a time capsule and a kid seeing the future or something. Check out the IMDb.
Donnie Darko: I made a new friend.
Dr. Thurman: Real or imaginary?
>>By ketut (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 21:09)
OK, heres a theory I dont think anyones come up with - I had this idea that once Frank dies, he only has a set amount of time that he can spend in the tangent universe as a manipulated dead to guide donnie. We know no one else can see him, cause he was in Dr Thurmans office and she didnt see him. So if he could spend as much time as he wanted he could just hang around all the time and tell donnie bluntly what to do. Sounds a bit loose, but I had a thought that the more time he spends there the harder it becomes to communicate with donnie. So he has a choice of when to appear to donnie and has to do it at important times only, so he starts in the cinema (which ultimately leads to his mother being on the plan). Here, his voice is normal and he has no water barrier seperating him and the tangent universe. He also has the ability to create the portal on the screen which he doesnt do at any other time. If you look, the less important there conversations the more distant Frank appears. I realize of course that the conversation in the cinema isn't there first, but then Frank do them in any order because he is the 4th dimension of time. Dunno how well I explained that, let me know if your confused (and reading the previous posts, that sounds likely). Oh, and one thing thats been bugging me - why does his mother and sister have to be on the plane for the jet engine to go back? Surely the plane would be there anyway?
>>By -Ronald- (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 23:27)
so,donnie can throw a party on halloween....
>>By LiveForChange (Thursday, 29 Apr 2004 01:32)
Yes Ronald your quite right the plane would be there anyway. the mother and sister are only on the plane because of the sequence of events which lead to jim cunningham being arrested for child pornography. which in turn meant that the original chaperon (miss farmer) would stay to help him. leaving Donnies mom as the only possible chaperon. and even then she only caught "the red eye" so she could get home as early as possible because her husband was away on business.
But hold on... it gets even more complicated......then again the plane wouldn't crash without the wormhole. and the wormhole wouldn't be there if Donny had stayed in bed and died when he was supposed to . which ultimately led to the rip in the fabric of time which caused the wormhole to appear.
So Donnies mom and sister would have to be on the plane if all those events occured. but of course they never did.
phew! did that help you any Ronald?
Another point i would like to raise. will certain people out there please stop crediting Donny with this mystical powers to raise fire and water. he used gasoline and a match to set fire to jim cunninghams home. and he took an axe to the water main! in what way exactly are these magical powers?!!
>>By highlander III (Thursday, 29 Apr 2004 09:57)
OK, understand what your saying highlander lll but what led me to think about it was an interview with Richard Kelly in the Donnie Darko book (which rules by the way if you don't own it yet) where he said that the conception of the film was starting with a jet engine falling, and then finding the most interesting way of solving that mystery. He then said his first task was to get Donnies mother on the plane, as if it was vital resolving the mystery. Now I know it still makes sense if this isn't the case, cause Frank could have just done it to set up the Halloween party (good point by the way, cheers LiveForChange) but I just think there's more reasoning in putting her on the plane, not just coincedence.
Oh, and don't be so hard on the 'conjure fire and water' people - it's right there in the Philosophy of Time Travel, and you never actually see him use a match. But yea, he could have used one. I think getting an axe in a bronze statue 3 times his height constitutes magical powers anyway.
>>By -Ronald- (Thursday, 29 Apr 2004 15:50)
Highlander:
Plane didn't crash because of the wormhole but because of Donnie's superpowers he could use (philosophy of time travel) telekenisis...he removed the object (jet engin) of plane and sent it through wormhole...this clue gave him his science teacher.See,that's the whole problem...if rift in 4th dimension was caused by Donnie not dying and Frank was there to weak him up so jet engin don't crush him,then why he did that?Why would he create rift?Don't make sence,huh?...and that's why the only explaining is that Donnie was supposed to die that night (something like his destiny) but something happend (his destiny didn't fullfill,maybe because he wasn't gonna die happy which i doubt,who knows) and by breaking this destiny rift in 4th dimension occured.So Donnie had to fix his own destiny.Jet engin would never fell down to his room if Frank didn't weak him up that night and start leading him towards his mission(tangent universe) which was something like god's 2nd plane to fix destiny (u can't change destiny if u travel in god's channel).Therefore if Donnie had stayed in bed he would never know he was supposed to die that night but black hole would still create in couple of weeks and destroy both universes.The jet engin was from tangent universe which never happend,that's why that plane never crashed and nobody could explain where is it from.Donnie's mom could be even at Bahama's,the main point was that she leaves the house and Donnie can throw the party so he can fuck Gretchen and then go to Grandma's house where she gets killed.
It's hard to explain because i know u think philosophy of time travel or home page has nothing to do with movie;)
But yeah,the main question is still unanswered..."How could Frank weak up Donnie on beggining of the movie if Frank couldn't be there unless he was killed by Donnie which would never happen if Frank hadn't woken him up"?
>>By LiveForChange (Thursday, 29 Apr 2004 18:37)
LiveForChange:
I dont think the main question is unanswered, thats just a time paradox. You simply cant have a time travel film without a paradox a least that big.
I just read that Richard Kelly interview again, and he says the whole reason he wrote in Frank was to get donnies mother on the plane. So sorry, still bothering me that one.
>>By -Ronald- (Thursday, 29 Apr 2004 21:39)
live for change.
you state that Donny used his powers to break the engine off the plane as if it were a fact. it is in fact only your opinion.
its my opinion that Donny using his powers..travelled back in time and from his bed pushed the engine/artifact (using telekinesis) as it was falling ..back through the worm hole to the primary universe....which according to Roberta Sparrows book fixes the rip in time and space.
why is the main point the halloween party? its just part of the overall sequence of events. the main point is surely the destruction of the universe?!!
And why do you assume that MD.Frank saved Donnys life?
Maybe Donny was always going to get out of bed anyway.. sleepwalking..?
Maybe MD.Frank just wanted Donny to believe that he saved his life in order to gain his trust
Perhaps MD.Franks only real purpose was that of a 'guide'. his job was to convince Donny that time travel was possible.. " i can do anything i want ..and so can you" and showing him when and where to do it ( the cinema ) and otherwise just generally pushing him in the right direction.
but your last question. "how could Frank be there" well ..you see this is my main point..
All the events that happened in the 'tangent universe' were not manipulated by Anyone including Frank..everything that happened.. just happened that way..So Donnie did kill Frank..thereby allowing him to become manipulated dead..so he could travel back in time so he can be Donnys 'guide'...which in turn allows Donny to fix the rip in time and space!
But of course it was all a dream anyway! :)
Ronald
on the fire and water point...we did see him pour the gasoline did we not........? why would someone with magical powers to raise fire need gasoline? and did you miss the part in the movie where we clearly see Donny smashing the water main with the axe?
and i never disputed the axe in the bronze being superhuman, was merely pointing out that the fire and water thing is a mute point.
>>By highlander III (Friday, 30 Apr 2004 11:34)
Another point i would like to raise.. you guys have to remember that the original film is what you should be concentrating on..this is the movie that the director made, what he intended the world to see..the website , imaginary books , directors cut , deleted scenes , cast interviews ,the interview with Richard Kelly which you keep referring to, while interesting to debate , they all they all have to be treated as suspect in their integrity.
Remember its in Richard Kellys interest to keep everyone guessing about the true meaning of the movie.
How do you know that he's not deliberately misleading everyone so as to keep generating interest and therefore sales?
If you are going to analyse the movie. you have to stick to the facts. in this case the facts which are contained in the movie.
anything else is pure conjecture.
im not saying dont conjecture..im just saying dont try to pass conjecture as fact.
And finally just to clarify , in case it appears that im contradicting myself.
For me there are two ways to look at the movie.
1) from a factual basis in 'real world' perspective.
2) from the fantasy viewpoint of a tangent universe
>>By highlander III (Friday, 30 Apr 2004 20:10)
OK, I'm with you on the fire water thing being a mute point. But I really don't see why you need to differentiate between the original film and the related stuff. You say that the film was what he wanted the world to see, as if this isn't the case for The Philosophy of Time Travel, the website, or anything else. The deleted scenes were only removed due to time constraint (all but one, where Frank specifically mentions God). So he wanted the world to see them. And you keep saying everything in the film is 'fact' - surely if the Director wanted to mislead us (which I really doubt) then the entire film could be called suspect? I think he just wanted to get across a story that was to big to fit in a couple of hours, so it overflowed in to other mediums - mediums which have just as much validity as the film.
>>By -Ronald- (Friday, 30 Apr 2004 20:44)
I could really use some insights on the whole whys his mother on the plane thing by the way. Thats pissing me off. I cant think why the film wouldnt make sense if that wasnt the case.
>>By -Ronald- (Friday, 30 Apr 2004 20:50)
Highlander....
I'm starting to have fun;)
Do u know why i believe Donnie used his telekinesis powers to break the engin of the plane and then he sent it through the wormhole to kill himself?And that by not dying he went against his destiny and he was supposed to fix it?Because on end of the movie when he's sitting on hill or whatever and he's thinking about everything that lead him there and that's where he put 2 and 2 together and he realised what he must do.Frank(28 days,6 hours,42 min,and 12 seconds)...The teacher and conversation between him and Donnie which Donnie replays "in order to travel back in time u need something like space ship that travels in speed of light and to be able to find find of these wormholes...basic of time travel are there.You need your vessel and your portal and vessel could be anything most likely a spacecraft,metal craft of any kind."....see,donnie can't travel through the time,that's what manipulated death does,all donnie could do was send the jet engin through the portal so it goes back in time.Gretchen(what if u could go back in time and replace all these sad things with something better?).Donnie didn't personally went back in time but he sent jet engin through the wormhole which stopped bad future from happening.
Why do u think your opinion is wrong?
-Donnie cannot travel back in time
-I don't really get what u mean by pushing jet engin through the wormhole to the primery universe.If u believe he traveled back in time,he then traveled back to primary universe so how could he send it back to primary universe if it went there in first place from tangent one?only if u ment that he pushed it from his bed from primary universe as it was falling,somewhere else..but he didn't because it killed him.if u watch deleted scenes u can see stick in chest and blood on his mouth,haha.
i have feeling i missed something u said maybe not..
I'm not saying halloween party is main point of the movie.I said that it was main point of Donnie's mother going on plane.
I don't assume he saved his life,i assume that he woke up Donnie to saves universes from destruction and so jet engin fall down by guding him thorugh all that shit.There would be no point for Frank to save Donnie's life because he wasn't gonna die anyway and if he was why would he save him then if that would only create rift in 4th dimension?
Yeah,maybe Frank made Donnie believe that he saved his life (which he didn't) so Donnie do what he tells him( Donnie"i must follow him because he saved my life").
What would be point in proving him time travel was possible?I don't think that was his point at all.....but yeah,he's point was to guide Donnie towards his own death.
But it couldn't happend like that.Let's say Donnie did sleepwalk that night and he would leave his bed and he would weak up next morning on golf place.But what after that?How would he know he has to flood the school.....and burn the perverts house......how would he shoot Frank in the end.I mean,all these things just couldn't happen without Frank's help and manipulation.Otherwise Frank would be useless....
On the water and fire point;)
Donnie didn't have magical powers as abrakadabra and fire is there.That's not what they mean by it.He could use four special powers which would help him on his way...and Frank knew that.Axe was just prove that he used all 4 of them i guess....idk i'm getting tired from writting already,i don't feel like thinking.
IT WAS ALL JUST A DREAM:))))))
>>By LiveForChange (Saturday, 1 May 2004 06:18)
okay this is my inerpretation of what happend,
All the things that he did the first time around happened withought the jet engine or the frank influence, somehow these actions sparked the end of the world, when he did a wormhole appeared,
then frank being dead was able to back and show him what he did, tell him about portals, excetra, donnie discovering what he did, drove his car into the wormhole and died happy knowing that everyone was okay, the jet engine being metal traveled back as well,
>>By Averyouruler (Saturday, 1 May 2004 23:40)
Well, it wasn't donnie's actions that caused the end of the world - tangent universes only last about a month anyway. So all of his actions serve to protect the primary universe. The funny thing is, when talking about time travel stuff words like 'when' and 'then' lose meaning. You say it like there's a second time around - 'second' being another word rendered useless in time travel stuff.
I do like what your saying about him being happy when he dies though. I've always thought that he was happy in the knowledge that everyone he loves and cares for is safe - after all this was his mission all along. In realising how simple his mission was, he also realises that it was a totally unselfish act - so much so that his own death is secondary in the scheme of things.
My advice to those watching Donnie Darko for the first time - try not to let it bother you that you wont understand it first time. Just sit back and rest safe in the knowledge that something beautiful is washing over you.
>>By -Ronald- (Sunday, 2 May 2004 02:06)
I've just been looking around gnod movie discussions to see if Donnie Darko sets the record for posts, and I think maybe it does. I haven't thought of anything else that comes close. I actually guessed Fight Club would take the cake, but no, it's only up to two pages.
>>By Arcana13 (Sunday, 2 May 2004 05:08)
Live for change
ok matey lets see if i can rip into your theory a bit hehe
point 1) vessel...portal. okay i do remember the scene Mr.Change...but yet again you're basing your theory on a very dubious premace. question...how do you know that vessel..portal is the only way to time travel?
In that scene..Monitov is talking about a MAN MADE wormhole..
go forward to the next conversation they have...
Donnie "can wormholes appear anywhere any time " Monitov "thats highly unlikely, what your talking about is an ACT OF GOD"
Donnie "every living thing has a set path & if you could see your path or channel you could see into the future..thats a form of time travel"
Monitov " but your contradicting yourself" he explains.. . you cant have it both ways..you cant see that you have a set path.. because if you did that means you could change it ..which means its not a set path..
Donnie "Not if you travel within gods channel" Donnie means that yes you can travel along your set path and change it..but only within gods channel.
We clearly see in two seperate scenes thay Donny has the ability to see his own and other peoples destiny (the vectors or spears as Donnie calls them) if you can see the future. that is time travel..
his powers of time travel are god given. so when he's sitting on that hilltop he does indeed put it all together , just not the way you've interpretated it.. On the hilltop what he sees is no MAN MADE PORTAL..it was GODS CHANNEL.
He doesn't need any vessel at all.. he would only need that if it was a man made portal.
so he travels back in time to his bed because he already knows the engine is going to land there.
from there he uses his poweres of telekinesis to push the engine back through the wormhole (which you have to do to seal it...according to the Roberta Sparrow book)
point 2) And to clarify..he pushes the engine from his bed while in the tangent universe. back into the primary universe..where it kills the primary universe Donnie
point 3) and how would Donnie know to do the flooding etc..why would he have to know?
you have to take it that all the events leading to Franks death had previously happened anyway..what im saying is..that Donnie had flooded the school..burnt the house etc..MD.Frank had no effect on this....otherwise this creates an impossible paradox..
and what was the point of making Donnie believe time travel was possible??? is that a serious question there mr.change???
i think you must have been very tired indeed when you came up with that one!!! :))))
Over to you mr. change
Check!
>>By highlander III (Sunday, 2 May 2004 10:47)
Ronald
wake up and smell the coffee boi..
forget about the mom on the plane. its really not that important.. Richard Kelly was merely explaining how he pieced the film together.
he obviously thought it would be a nice twist to put her on the plane that crashes. so he scratched his head a bit... worked it in...and he was right...its a nice touch!
and the original film is indeed the blueprint which you have to interpret the movie by.
All the information you need is in there...if it wasn't why would he have let it be released? bearing in mind it wasn't a 'studio' film and he had total control over it.
not to say.. that its not interesting to debate the other material.
But Ronald i do feel for you in your quest to understand this movie...im there to... along with many others...i honestly doubt if even Richard Kelly himself totally understands it.
>>By highlander III (Sunday, 2 May 2004 11:21)
OK, never once said that all the information wasn't in the film - and he didn't have control over the length of the film obviously. Otherwise the deleted scenes which, as i said, all but one of he wanted in the film, would be in it.
You havent specifically addressed the point of why you believe the included material has to be seperated from the related stuff. BOTH were created by the same man, BOTH were intended to be viewed, BOTH are just seperate parts of the same story.
Now, you believe that Donnie went back in time and then brought the jet engine back. NOWHERE in the film does it say Donnie himself can travel in time. It is merely his mission to guide the artifact back through the portal. Think about it - if he could just travel back at any time, what would be the point of guiding the engine to the wormhole? If he can travel back without one, he could surely make the engine do the same? Unless he created the portal?
And I really don't understand why you think he did it from his tangent bed? What would be the point in that? Donnie died in the tangent universe when it collapsed, after acheiving his goal. The primary Donnie remembers it all, and laughs hysterically having finally sussed it all out.
And there is no way that Frank is pointless, as you seem to imply. What does 'happened previously' mean anyway? This is Time Travel were talking about - there are no 1st's or previouslys. The tangent universe simply exists, and there is no such thing as an impossible paradox. Paradoxes are simply unavoidable in time travel films.
And don't worry, I know for a fact that Richard Kelly doesnt understand it. After watching the film for the first time, most people dont get it, come to places like this and learn the finer points. But where do we draw the line between answers and opinions? Is there really any difference between saying 'There was a tangent universe' and 'Frank was pointless'? There are some answers, otherwise what is the destination of our quest? ;)
>>By -Ronald- (Monday, 3 May 2004 00:21)
Ronald
the very simple reason is that you cant just decide to change something after its been viewed by the world. he put the original film out as a finished article. he cant change it now. all this other material has been put out to feed people hungry for more of the Donnie Darko story...and i will not change my mind on this..its there to generate more sales...its just so obvious..Richard Kelly has a once in a lifetime 'cashcow' and he's milking it all the way to the bank!
And you contradicted yourself a bit there...if you agree that all the information is in the original film then why do you need to look at other material to understand it ?
Donnie has to do push the artifact through the womhole from the tangent universe or the whole universe will collapse...he cant do it in the primary universe because he has no powers there.
the artifact going back through is what closes the wormhole and stops the destruction of the universe.
dont ask me why..i didn't make the rules..Roberta Sparrow did..or rather Richard Kelly did...
Ronald...you do know that Donnie is the living receiver?
his job is to return the artifact to the primary universe...thats his sole purpose!
he can only do that from within the tangent universe.
did you not notice the rewind scene near the end of the movie?
that was Donnie travelling back in time.
did you REALLY not get that???
and the rewind scene ended with Donny in his bedroom..he travelled back to his tangent bed because he knows the artifact is going to land there.
so he can use his powers to guide it back through the wormhole into the primary universe.
And i dont understand what your talking about in it being pointless...and the word 'previously' refer to events in the order that they happen. things are allowed to happen in the order that they happen arn't they Ronald...and your so called paradox is there to be solved...that is the point.
>>By highlander III (Monday, 3 May 2004 03:14)
OK, we'll have to lay this to rest. If you think everything other than the film is unreliable, then there's no way of proving otherwise. I still don't see why the same can't be true for the film, he can just as easily stick a nonsensical scene in there to confuse everyone as he can create a website or write a book. But for now I'll try and make my points without refering to them.
I didn't contradict myself at all, I never said you NEEDED the other material to understand it - just that it's helpful to a lot of people.
Now, I really don't understand why you think the rewind scene is Donnie travelling back. You clearly see the engine falling in to the portal BEFORE this scene, so he had already achieved his goal. The rewind scene is Middlesex and everyone in it returning back to October 2nd, just in case people weren't paying attention to the dates - that could be REALLY confusing. And why do you think he went back to his TANGENT bed? Really think about that, cause that makes no sense whatsoever. If he dies in the tangent universe on October 2nd, that undoes everything that he acheived during the film and would destroy both universe's. I think what your saying is that he pushes the engine back in time first, then it makes a second journey to the primary universe So he meets it on October 2nd in the tangent universe? But then there would be no engine to fall on his house in the tangent universe, thus again undoing everything in the film and destroying both universe's.
The film simply cannot resolve this way. The fact is, it is simpler and only makes sense if Donnie pushes the engine in to the portal in the tangent universe FROM THE TOP OF THE HILL. Your right in saying that he couldn't do it in the primary universe, but that doesn't mean he has to go back to his bed to do it. He and everyone in the tangent universe ceases to exist, and we are left with nothing but the primary universe where primary Donnie has a complete memory of the events that happened - just as the manipulated living have a partial one.
I simply don't get where you got this idea from that he's in his tangent bed at the end. What was it in the film that led you to think that?
>>By -Ronald- (Monday, 3 May 2004 15:17)
High Lander;)
God,i'm getting fuck*n confused.So,let's do this....
1.conversation-hmm,i never tho of that this way.You and i look at the meaning of god's channel differently.
You are right,I shouldn’t have said that vessel-portal is only way to travel but in this movie it is at least that’s the point of movie just like Ronald said(to send jet engin through the wormhole).Only in case of Frank but he doesn’t count because he had to die before he could travel.You said they talked about wormhole made by man first and then about the one that can appear from nowhere which is more like an act of god.Their conversation could be also ment as that they talked about human traveling through the portal in which human can't or can(most likely not) travel alone unless he got a craft of any metal kind and then Donnie asked if these portals can appear just from nowhere and teacher said that would be an act of god.They never said anything about human traveling through the portal alone so i don't think it matters if the portal was created by man or if it just appered from nowhere...it has still same rules.
And now....what do u understand under God's channel?From what i concluded(correct me) u think God's channel is portal made by god.I think,that when Donnie said u can change your set path but only within God's channel is that u can have many different ways of getting there but result is still same because it's your destiny.Let's say u could see your future and u would try to not do something or do something differently so the result would be different....but it wouldn't be,because u are traveling in God's channel and in God's channel your destiny will always full fill otherwise rift in 4th dimension creates and by changing your destiny universes will collapse because u crashed its stability.Tangent universe is also a part of God’s channel,it’s way to fix rift in 4th dimension which might occure and if that doesn’t work….black hole and AMEN.
Yeah,Donnie is able to see his and others people destinies through the spirals but only into the future.So,it's not really time travel it's more like seeing your set path which everyone one of us has(according to movie) and in conversation with teacher he might have been talking about these portals which appeared from nowhere.He sure can't travel travel through them into the past or future so i wouldn't call it time travel.
2.Now i get what are u trying to say.You believe that jet engine broke of plane by itself when it was flying over wormhole(but what would make it break off?wormhole?) and then it went through the wormhole to do tangent universes just like the first time.Donnie knew that so he traveled to the tangent universe from where he pushed it to the primary one to kill himself.But why?How does that fixes the rift?And what is the cause of the rift?And what closed it in the end?Wasn’t it Donnie’s death?
See,what I think is that jet engine would never fall down if the Frank hadn’t woken up Donnie because if the main goal was for Donnie to die (idk y,my theory is kinda based on destiny…that’s also what happened to the other 2 living receivers in Roberta Sparrow’s book) why didn’t he just let him die?Because there was nothing that was gonna kill him in first place(was Donnie destined to die?) and that’s why Frank had to guide Donnie to send the engine through the wormhole which would kill him.Because rift was created by the Donnie’s destiny which didn’t fulfill and to order to fix it he has to die that night.But this is just my theory,it did make more sense before then now.What I keep asking myself is why was Donnie destined to die?Maybe he was destined to die just because he was living receiver just like those other 2 and the rift closed something else he did.
And u also made me think about something.Jet engine did fall down in tangent universe but we need Primary Donnie to die.So,did he travel and pushed the engine back?Fuck…haha
3.I think I rather take paradox and then believing in that everything happened before already without Frank’s help.What would be Frank’s purpose then?
4.What I’m asking is who’s point is it or what is it point of?the main point of the movie?
>>By LiveForChange (Monday, 3 May 2004 22:44)
High Lander 2
I agree with Ronald that deleted scenes and website helps people to understand the movie better from director's view but on other side if he don't understands it then it is there just for money..or both.
Donnie has to do push the artifact through the womhole from the tangent universe or the whole universe will collapse(so u're saying rift was fixed by that?why did primary Donnie had to die then?)...he cant do it in the primary universe because he has no powers there.(there would be no purpose anyway,would be?)
the artifact going back through is what closes the wormhole and stops the destruction of the universe.(again,so,y did Donnie die?)
dont ask me why..i didn't make the rules..Roberta Sparrow did..or rather Richard Kelly did...(how do u know that artifact going back through the wormhole closes it?aren't those your rules and not R.S. or R.K.?)
3.This is also for Ronald also....
what do u guys think created rift and closed rift?i'm getting confused idk if i follow what are u saying.Ronald,if u believe primary Donnie Darko stayed alive with all his memories on tangent universe then on the end of the movie it had to be tangent Donnie who died not primary.But to stop everything from repeating doesn't have to primary Donnie die?
>>By LiveForChange (Monday, 3 May 2004 23:35)
Ronald
At the end of the movie he is in tangent universe because the jet engin fell down in there at the beginning of the movie.But idk if u noticed but at the beginning of the movie jet angine fell down after October 2 and then at the end after it...at least they showed like that.Does that mean at the end of the movie jet engine fell down in primary universe?and if yeah,how is it possible?High Lander theory would be good for that but only in case they never showed how Donnie went to tangent universe and pushed it into primary which is unlikely.
>>By LiveForChange (Monday, 3 May 2004 23:48)
OK, I'm getting really confused here so I'm gonna run through my interpretation of the end of the movie and you can pick holes accordingly.
Firstly, Donnie's mission was always to guide the artifact back to the primary universe. That's it. So, he goes up to the top of the hill where he finds the plane conveniently flying by. The portal has already formed, and just as the plane passes directly it Donnie rips it off using telekenises. It then falls in to the portal.
Now, I believe it is the artifact passing through the portal that closes it. The second this happens, the tangent universe ceases to exist - I don't know whether this is because the black hole swallows it up, or maybe pushing the artifact through does this. Open to opinions on that, but the point is that it no longer exists.
Now, the artifact makes it journey back in time and in to the primary universe. As this happens, the film itself rewinds to symbolise the artifacts journey - THIS IS NOT DONNIE TRAVELLING BACK IN TIME.
As it arrives in the primary universe, Primary Donnie (the only Donnie who now exists) has a complete memory of the events that occured. As we are in the primary universe, there is no Frank to wake Donnie so he remains in his bed. He wakes up, laughing hysterically at how simple his mission and is happy that he achieved it. Now, I'll point out here that I have no idea why he stays in bed - it could be one of three things. 1) He doesn't have time to move. 2) He forgets the engine will land there. 3) In the scheme of things and seeing as he just saved the world, he simply doesn't care.
Then the manipulated awake, and life continues in the primary universe forever. The End
I'm not sure why you thought I thought primary Donnie didn't die. I also don't understand why you think the engine falls in the tangent universe, all this would do as I have said is undo what Donnie has done and destroy both universes. Remember, it is Donnie's mission to "guide the artifact in to position for it's journey back to the primary universe". Feel free to ignore that bit Highlander - it's straight out of TPOTT.
LiveForChange, I've said what I think closes the portal, but as for what opens it, I think that depends on your interpretation of who is the puppeteer in all of this. God, Aliens, some other omnipitent force, whatever. This is a point Richard Kelly intentionally left open to the viewer so discussing it is ultimately pointless. There is no answer.
But there are some answers. Let's pray there are anyway. :)
>>By -Ronald- (Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:30)
live for change
whoa..you cant dismiss the time travel..gods channel that easily..no Donnie was definately differentiating between man made and gods channel...and it had to be gods portal because we know it wasn't man made. its true that they didn't discuss a human travelling without a craft.. but Donnie didn't need a craft as we saw when he could see the 'spears' ..time lines.. .. by seeing everyones time-lines that surely is a form of time travel..
But wheather he time travelled by his will or not is a mute point anyway, the point is he did go back in time along with everyone else in the tangent..
So whichever way you look at it he did time travel..
No LIVE FOR CHANGE you've definately got the meaning of Monitovs / Donnies second scene wrong..your arguing what Monitov argued...he said you cant alter your destiny no matter what you do... if you believe in a set path for every living being...but Donnie argued that you can travel on your set path and you can alter it ..but ONLY within GODS Channel...this is the moment when Donnie realizes that he could change his own destiny. But this is the point LIVE FOR CHANGE...he was VERY specific that it was GODS channel...
You just cant dismiss this scene...its way to important!
And yes the jet engine broke of the plane when it hit the portal..it was like hitting a tornado!! remember the plane scene?... the turbulance..?...thats when the engine broke off..and fell through the portal. think about it why on earth would Donnie break it off? to do what??.. jump on it and travel through time??
is that what your suggesting??
And anyway when Monitov said you need a metal vessel i think he meant something you could get inside of!
What do you think Donnie did with it...hehehe...surf it through through the portal???
but you meant Donnie broke it off to create the arifact to giude through the portal...right?
But why? for what purpose? to kill himself in the primary? and that fixes the rip?
yeah i see what your getting at..Franks purpose was to kill Donnie..well i'll run with your theory a bit there...so your confusion there is why did MD.Frank wake him to save him if he wanted to kill him..right?
Simple answer is that Donnie did get out of bed by his own volition..(sleepwalking probably) and his survival created the rip.
And Frank came back not to wake him..just to gain his trust..(as i mentioned before) and to guide him to his death. which ultimately saves the universe...yes not bad LIVE FOR CHANGE ...and if you take that further it also means that it was always Donnies choice...and this is important.....he had the freedom to live even if that meant the destruction of the universe....(ive always thought the film was about free will)....or to die and save the universe....a clue to that in the movie was the lesson on Greens short story "the destructors" ..."destruction is a form of creation" and incidently... along the lines of that same story... Frank and Donnie go on a rampage of destruction to "shake things up" just to see what happens.. ( ive always thought the lesson on the short story was a big clue to understanding the film )
Your other point.... the purpose of the artifact was to fix the whole problem..if you put the artifact back into the primary..then problem over..all done and dusted..universe saved! why does it fix the problem? ask Richard Kelly!!
But lets just pause one minute...its great to have these debates about the movie.. but it does mean different things to different people...im not saying that i know any better than anyone else..im just explaining the way i saw it...this movie is so complex when you delve into the time travel aspect ...its anyones guess what really happened.
Was anyone manipulated? or was that a "red herring"
Was it really all just a dream as i pointed out before?
Did MD.Frank ever exist or was he just a figment of Donnies imagination?
Was it Donnie avoiding death on that day that caused the rip?
the truth is its impossible to know for sure.
As for your final question LIVE FOR CHANGE
What was the meaning behind the movie?
As i mentioned above....i personally think that its mainly about free will...
>>By highlander III (Tuesday, 4 May 2004 06:22)
Ronald
If u believe artifact passing through the portal closes the rip then why didn't it close first time when Donnie left the bed and it didn't kill him?wasn't it the same artifact that Donnie was gonna and did send down later on?Didn't that artifact lend in tangent universe which starts October 2?But if u notice at the end of the movie they show October 2 after the artifacts kills Donnie...so that's still primary universe or maybe they just wanted to show the date for those who are less understanding.
And also there must be some reason why Donnie had to die(Roberta Sparrow mentioned in her book 2 other people or one other person(?.don't remember) which was killed but metal object(i think it was arrow) which appeared from nowhere.
1)he does have time to move.....if he wanted to move he wouldn't be laughting.
2)hmm.....nah
3)that neither
Then the manipulated awake, and life continues in the primary universe forever. The End.....u mean manipulated living,right?
So,if it was Donnie job to giude artifact back to primary universe why did it go to tangent the first time?and who sent it there?
Now, the artifact makes it journey back in time and in to the primary universe. As this happens, the film itself rewinds to symbolise the artifacts journey - THIS IS NOT DONNIE TRAVELLING BACK IN TIME.
Agree;)
>>By LiveForChange (Tuesday, 4 May 2004 22:03)
High Lander
Donnie didn't travel through the time when he saw the spirals he just saw future(and just to some point).......he didn't travel there.And on end of the movie he didn't travel back.Otherwise there would be two Donnies.....ever tho about that?Only if.....Donnie did travel back to tangent universe and went into his bed while the other Donnie was sleeping at golf place and he sent jet engin back to primary where he killed primary Donnie and also 2 tangent ones.
Hmm,i guess u are right then...so,how did Donnie change his own destiny?And what was his destiny in first place?
I tho Donnie broke it off and send it through the wormhole to the primary universe.....there's no point for Donnie to go to the back of tangent one and send it to the primary from there.That would be too complicated....
So u also believe that Donnie staying alive created rip.But why?And what would kill him?If Frank hadn't woken him up and wouldn't guide him,jet engine would never fall down.Only if fall down before no matter what but from where?That could only happen if Donnie being alive didn't create rift but something else,so the jet engin would really broke off by itself and fall down.But what did create rift then?What i'm saying is if Donnie being alive created rift means that Frank had to weak up Donnie so he sents the jet eninge back to kill himself....if it's not Donnie's death then what is it and why did Donnie had to die?
Did MD.Frank ever exist or was he just a figment of Donnies imagination?
that would be possible if we didn't pay attention to manipulated dead....but i do take that as part of everything,so nah;)
I liked how compared movie to Greens short story...
>>By LiveForChange (Tuesday, 4 May 2004 22:54)
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