Donnie Darko
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The beginning of the movie really being the end of it where Donnie wakes up in the middle of the road... thats a good theory. However that would sort of change the perspective of the movie for a lot of people all together. If it were a dream than how would Donnie know who gretchen was if he never would of met her before? And how would he know who frank was either? If That beginning of the scene was really the end, then you could also argue that Frank and Gretchen never really existed. That would also throw a lot of questions as to why every major character of the movie woke up from that "nightmare" at the end. I like how a lot of people who like this movie have their own theories about it, unfourtunately the only person who would truely know what the plot is about would be the writer of it. Nevertheless, i believe the entire movie was just based on a devine intervention and its possible that the plot is solely for people like us to discuss what really happened. GREAT MOVIE! ! i owe blockbuster late fee's because im not ready to give it back!
>>By Caleb Novak (Tuesday, 23 Mar 2004 22:00)
Thanks for your feedback Caleb...But the main point of my theory is that EVERYTHING bar the opening scene is a dream,including the scene when the characters in his dream wake up...Therefore it doesn't matter if Gretchen or Frank or anyone else exist.Like i said, the dream starts at midnight 2nd October & ends when the boy waves to donnies mother,then donnie wakes up lying on the road.The director has put,what should be the end sequence,at the beginning of the movie.
I'm just trying to explain the movie.But trying to explain Donnies dream,thats a different ball game altogether!
>>By highlander III (Tuesday, 23 Mar 2004 23:41)
Hi all,
New to the discussion, only saw the film a few days ago, just this second read the book. Metaphysics and pseudoscience aside I was amazed at the `dream` sequences of the film (the movie theatre, golf course etc) and how much they reminded me of my own dreams when I would sleep walk as a child. Also the end of the film when the manipulated return to the primary universe...reminded me of when you wake from an incredibly deep sleep and can`t quite put your finger on whats wrong?
Some people have asked why is Donnie laughing at the end? The subjective nature of humour, laughter, emotional experience in general make that an impossible question to answer (though fun to speculate on none the less) but I like to think that Donnie is laughing in relief that he has done it. Returned the artifact back to the primary and that "there is so much to look forward to". Does he know he is about to die? I`d like to think that he does simply for my own sense of closure. I`ve never liked pointless tragedies (Romeo and Juliet!!) and for Gretchen to have never known Donnie and a brilliant guy like Donnie to die for absolutley no reason seems to be just that. But for Donnie (the super hero?) to willingly pass over for Gretchen? It makes the story worth telling.
Some other stuff worth noting (sorry if I`m a bit behind and this has alredy been mentioned...)
Those guys at the beginning are NOT from the FAA! This is spoken about more in Noah Wyles characters obituary on the website as well as the letter his partner writes, also on the website. Also the fat dude at gretchen and Donnies attempted first kiss is one of the same group of guys and is also in their neighbourhood the night of the party.
Highlander read the book again mate It might make help more sense to you then! The `dream` as you put it ends when the artefact is returned and the Tangent universe collapses returning Donnie to the Primary.
Take care all
>>By docjay (Wednesday, 24 Mar 2004 20:22)
Oh shit I forgot...does anyone else think that `god` `frank` or whoever it is that guides Donnie and the others through takes over Dr. Thurman on their last hypno session to give Donnie some kind words of reassurance? Just seems a little odd that she says what she says about the sky opening up and it all being OK and hugging him when in the past she`s been a little cold?
Cheers
>>By docjay (Wednesday, 24 Mar 2004 20:31)
What book would that be docjay? the IMAGINARY book on that website? written by the IMAGINARY Roberta Sparrow? im amazed that so many people have been sucked in by a website that has obviously been designed specifically to generate more sales of the movie! i suggest that you watch the REAL ORIGINAL MOVIE again docjay.
Of course the tangent universe theory is interesting to debate,but if Frank was a Manipulated Dead because he was killed in the Tangent Universe. why did he have to wake Donnie up to save him,bearing in mind Donnie would have to be alive to kill Frank later on anyway? Why would Frank have to tell Donnie to flood the school in order for him to meet Gretchen,when Gretchen would have had to be with Donnie when she was killed by the ''LIVING'' Frank anyway? Manipulated dead Frank serves no purpose since all the events would have had to happen anyway,in order for Frank to be killed & therefore able to return as a Manipulated Dead. There are far to many holes in the Tangent Universe theory for it to hold up under scrutiny. If you watch the movie carefully,the opening sequence has no date.in fact its the only chapter that isnt dated.Therefore we dont know when that sequence occurs.Everyone ASSUMES that its Oct 1st because its the start of the movie.Do you think its coincidence that its not dated? it is in fact the REAL end of the movie,its simple.Donnie falls asleep has a M.A.D.Dream & wakes up & cycles home
>>By highlander III (Thursday, 25 Mar 2004 03:43)
highlander lll -
Frank didn't weak up Donnie to save him,Frank woke up Donnie so he realise that tangent universe had started and he's purpose is to fix it.If Frank never had never woken up Donnie the jet engin would never fell down his room that night.Donnie would stay in bed,tangent universe would start,nothing would have been done about it and in couple weeks both tangent and primary universe would be destroyed.see,the question is what caused rift in 4th dimension which cause tangent universe.i think it was destony,Donnie's destiny which didn't fullfil and since we travel in god's channel tangent universe is somehting like second chance to fix it.but yeah,there's one thing i don't understand.where did dead Frank(the one at beggining) came from if he had never died in first place.cause if Frank died in tangent universe and that would never happen if Frank didn't weak up Donnie how could Frank be dead and weak him up if he couldn't be dead untill he woke up Donnie.the only explanation is that Donnie would shoot frank either way,so,then he could come from the future.otherwise how could frank get shot and become manipulated dead if he wasn't there to guide Doonie in first place?so,as i'm readin what u wrote right now,yeah,u are right,manipulated dead is useless.but i still question if the beginning of the movie is end of the movie,it's hard to believe,but it's possible because if u notice,when he was coming home that morning Frank passed by him on a car and that fat guy in red was jogging with somebody on sidealk.so,people in he's dream could really exist,but he just gave them his own characters.idk,either way i want phone number of the guy who made this movie....haha
>>By LiveForChange (Saturday, 27 Mar 2004 04:03)
highrider lll -
actually,manipulated dead is not useless,it just doesn't make sence how it woke up donnie in first place.
>>By LiveForChange (Saturday, 27 Mar 2004 04:11)
LiveForChange
hehehe Thanks mate, thats cleared everything up!
Thats the problem with the whole tangent universe thing, u can tie yourself in knots trying to work it out. Donnie would have had to survive to b there to kill Frank,so Frank can travel back in time as a manipulated dead. Other theories are,that its on a time-loop & Frank was killed in another way,within another tangent universe. But u c clearly in the cinema scene that he has a bullet hole in his eye.exactly where Donnie shot him.. The "ensurance trap" (that Donnies mother & kid sister will die in the plane crash) is also easily dismissed. Donnies mother would have to be out of the way anyway,so Donnie could have the party.The party has to happen as Frank has to be there to go on the beer run & kill Gretchen(who also has to be at the party & is part of the so called ensurance trap) so Donnie can kill Frank so that Frank can become a Manipulated Dead. So what purpose does M.D Franks' presence serve?
The Alice in wonderland homage is obvious..The dream/fantasy sequence starts by the appearance of a white rabbit. it leads us/Donnie into wonderland.
Dont u get it? Donnie is Alice. hehehe
he didnt die,it really was all a dream
DONNIE'S ALIVE!!!
>>By highlander III (Saturday, 27 Mar 2004 08:54)
highlander -
well,not really.donnie didn't have to survive to kill frank because he killed frank before he died in primary universe in tangent universe(which never happend).then when he sent jet engin back in time to crush himself frank wasn't there anymore,because he never died.what doesn't make sence is that frank couldn't weak up donnie untill he was dead and he wasn't dead untill he woke up donnie.however i'm trying it just doesn't make sence,but i think it's not us who made mistake.
i still don't think it was all just dream...even if that would explain the guy in the red on the beginning if the movie;)
>>By LiveForChange (Monday, 29 Mar 2004 02:05)
ok, i dont think it was all a dream either. i think that stuff happened in two different universes and they mingled because of frank and donnie, then the effects of what they did allowed donnie to go back in time and whatnot, but i disagree with the idea that most of hte movie was a dream sequence.
>>By SoulSlave (Monday, 29 Mar 2004 17:22)
Highlander-
I`m aware that Philosophy of Time Travel is not a real book thankyou! Nontheless It was not created as an add on to flesh out the DVD and website. It is an integral part of the story telling process and, whist the film is fantastically enjoyable without having read it, it provides the viewer with a more complete understanding of the movie. This is not a new concept. The Matrix trilogy was, I believe, the first example of a story being told in a multi media format and, going further back, Star wars was another example of how a film may stand alone but additional material, written before and released after, gives the viewer a greater depth of understanding.
I don`t believe that the whole movie, save the opening scene, was a dream for the following very simple reason.It renders the entire story utterly, completly pointless. No (good) writer in his right mind would pen a film in which nearly everything that occurs was "all just a dream". If he/she did then at the very least there should be an epilogue which shows how the events of the dream has changed the character in the real world (see Ebenezer Scrooge). One notable exception would be American Psycho but the idea of the Hero/villains adventures having been pure fantasy is to provide the viewer with a sense of how utterly inconsequential his life actually is. If what you`re saying is correct and the entire film is all just a dream then really, what is the point? Donnie awakens from a strange dream about people who he hasn`t met and therefore may/may nor exist (Gretchen, Frank, Cunningham) before then going on with his life which we, the audience, learn nothing about. A somewhat pontless excercise for the filmmaker and certainly the audience.
Are you saying that Donnie goes to bed on the 2/11 and the dream starts there? If so he`s wearing different clothing to whan he wakes up in the middle of the road. If the ENTIRE film is a dream then why does Donnie dream about having dinner and going to bed!? I`m sorry but I just think it`s a bit of a weak theory both in terms of the script, and the real-world implications for writing an "...and it was all just a dream..." type of movie. Not meant as a personal attack by the way and if I`ve missed any thing pertinent in your argument please point it out.
I don`t believe that when Donnie sees Frank as an apparition it is actually Frank ( as in Elizabeth`s boyfriend). My personal theory is that God is appearing to donnie as `Frank ` and keeping everything within his/her designed pathway (as Donnie mentions in his discussion with his teacher). The apparition takes the form of Frank in the clothing that he wears when Donnie kills him because of the karmic significance (for want of a better phrase) of Donnie blowing someone away. Why do I think the rabbit is God? The discussion in the movie theatre. I don`t think that `Frank` is apologising for running over Gretchen but because Donnie, one of Gods children, is having to suffer the terrifying ordeal of being the reciever in order to close the tangent and save the universe. The deleted scene (sorry highlander) at the golf course explains this further and was, reportedly, cut out as it made it all a bit too obvious.
Sorry if thats all a bit heavy and I`d like to add that if it offends any ones religous sensibilities then that was NOT my intention.
Cheers
>>By docjay (Monday, 29 Mar 2004 20:33)
docjay
renders the entire movie pointless? what? here's the news kid, ALL movies are pointless!
they merely tell a story! this director told a story! a story of a boy who had a fantastic dream! thats all!
no good writer would pen a story that was all a dream? what? are u for real? literally thousands of examples!!!
i believe one of the first examples was penned in ancient greece! over 2000 years ago!
"deux et machina" quoted by Donnie. Actually refers to the well known literary term,used by
the writer as an easy 'get-out' of a story which makes no sense & therefore cant be explained rationally. ie Crazy story .makes no sense, writer explains it by having main character wake up at the end..gee it was all just a dream!
Only difference in Donnie Darko, end sequence is placed at the beginning! REASON? to confuse the hell out of everyone!
He's wearing different clothing? What? he can 'sleep cycle' but he cant change his clothes?
which one of those is the most imponderable?
Why not dream of having dinner & going to bed? Do dreams have rules now?
Why must there be an epilogue? It is what it is! There's no need for it to be tied up in a nice little bow , is there?
Add on to the movie to flesh out the story? Add on to flesh out the bank balance more like!!
But im not trying to detract from the film in any way, its a superb piece of movie making.done by a very capable & clever director.
And im not trying to suggest the movie meant nothing.im just pointing out the most logical explaination for the sequence of events within the movies' structure.
>>By highlander III (Friday, 2 Apr 2004 05:29)
Ahaha. I love the overanalyzation going on here.
The movie kicks ass. Let's leave it at that. ^-^
>>By CÆT (Saturday, 10 Apr 2004 20:24)
hey everyone im new to this site....just wanted to say hi and hope to chat with u all alot....i love this movie but its very confsuing to me.....at the end of the movie why was donnies ( soon to be ) girlfriend waving to his mom??
>>By aNew Hope (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 09:50)
I think that Donnie's "girlfriend" just feels bad for the mom and is showing that she is recognising her presence
>>By XcrossedX (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 01:32)
Ok every body Listen up Because I am going to Explain Donnie Darko so good your gonna think I wrote the script (pause for laughs) . ok here goes
Donnie Darko Is really like gretchen his girlfriend said a super hero he has the power to move metal i.e Magneto he has super strength i.e the axe embeded inside the statue. he also has power over water like when he is outside the self-gurus house the sprinklers go off and when he floods the school. Donnie is able to change his present because he travelled through Gods channel Donnie quickly speeds up to that hill to catch his mom and sisters plane because he knows that he must kill them in order to take their engine and send it back through time. Also something that most people didn't pick up is the guy in the halloween red costume somehow he has travelled there with donnie that I can't Explain
1st Ending explanation: Donnie had to kill himself in order for people to survive and for the world to return to normal if Donnie had survived then everything that happened in the tangent universe would occur only that it would happen differently because obviously Donnie would try and prevent this then he really would die alone because his mom and sister are gone and his girlfriend
2nd Ending: Personally I feel that if Donnie had just got his fucking arse out of bed then everything would be alright because Donnie would not need to send the engine back because it would not drop agin so a tangent unvierse would not open and his mom and friends would not perish and everything would go on as normal and Donnie could expose the Self-guru Paeodophile and yes his mom would have to take his sister but they would not die seeing as there is no blck hole in the sky preventing them from crossing. Also when his sister throws her halloween party for getting into harvard Donnie would not need to go to Grandma Death's house where Gretchen is run over
3rd Explanation: Donnie wakes up like evryone else and starts laughing he thinks that it was all a dream and that it is just Deja vu so he lies back in bed but little does he know he is going to die
Finally at the end the mother and Grecthen aknowledge an unspoken bond because they both loved Donnie so they wave at each other because they can not explain it. the boy then waves to us saying goodbye thus letting us ponder the film a bit more but by far this is one of my best movies
one final thought is that Donnie is ALIVE sorry I spoilt it for you guys ok here goes Donnie shoots frank with a pellet gun and only knocks him out he then sends frank back also as an artifact and he opens up a tangent universe because his mask is metal and the donnie that sent frank is back in his room and dies but the Donnie that is standing on the hill wakes up on the road just like at the start do u get it now people?
If you have any theories E-mail me on Catoboy2001@aol.com
>>By The puzzler (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 03:57)
IF anybody wants me to explain another film just ask like The Matrix incase your wondering Neo is dead along with agent smith they can't exist without one another
>>By The puzzler (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 04:04)
This might seem stupid because I haven't read all the posts so you may allready have said it but I have a few questions.
At the "look-back" when the time is reversing you can se Donnies family huging eachother and laughing and then the camera changes picture and there stands donnie, alone and he looks down at the ground. Is that when samantha and his mother returns from the trip with sparkle motion? Does he know that he's going to die?
My thoughts about Cherita:
She's an angel (or something like that, I think she's mentioned in "philosophy of time travel"..) who's sent to look after donnie. She has a little book where it says "donnie darko" and when donnie gets to se it (when she drops all her books and run away shouting "shut up") he just smiles and takes the ear muffin ?. (don't know the word for it) and puts it on..
Well, I hope you can read all that, I'm no star in english :D
>>By Gretchen (Wednesday, 21 Apr 2004 01:03)
I just wanted to chime in here and forgive me if it has been addressed ( I've read 18 of the 22 pages) .
A couple of the things people have been discussing have been done before and I think are quite related.
A short story named "An Incident at Owl Creek" was done as a Twilight Zone episode where a condemned man who is about to be hanged envisions his escape all in the fraction of a moment when he is pushed off the bridge to be hung.
Another is the movie "Repo Man". Repo Man was a comedy which dealt with time travel and flying cars. I read somewhere where Richard Kelly was going to have Donnie's car fly to the wormhole. The theory was that Time Travel is being done but by aliens in UFO's. ( I am not doing it justice, sorry)
Now in DD are these homages to other works? I don't know but these are the things which have been discussed here and have been discussed elsewhere to great length.
I think Richard Kelly did a fab job and l personally love all the ideas I get from others. Thanks to all of you and Thanks to Mr Kelly.
P.S. Donnie Darko is supposed to be re-released here in the USA this summer as a Directors Cut.
>>By ketut (Wednesday, 21 Apr 2004 16:47)
Just wanted to address the fact that the song "Mad World" sung by Gary Jules and originally recorded by Tears for Fears has FINALLY been released in CD format. There's even a new video for the song and hey, it only took 3 YEARS! Anywho, don't know if I'd buy the whole album by this guy until I hear something else from it. By the way, this is the song that plays at the end of the film when everyone is waking up and remembering a little bit of what happened to them in the alternate universe. OK, bye.
>>By The Walrus (Wednesday, 21 Apr 2004 17:03)
When donnie is at the shrink (?? ), psychol.. something. Donnie tells that Frank is gonna kill when "time's up", is he talking about Gretchen then? Suddently donnie says "I can see him right now" and then there's a picture at frank. He says "the sky is gonna open up", and then he's quiet. Maby frank is telling him everything that is going to happend, that's why he gets so scared. Donnie gets to know that he has to die ?
>>By Gretchen (Wednesday, 21 Apr 2004 18:04)
For our puzzler....haha
Mate,i don't know if u are playing with us but if u are not,no offence,but your theory is the dumbest one on this site.It's evident that u don't understand this movie a bit...so,let's go to explaining.
Donnie Darko is not superhero,at least not the one u think he is.He's living receivor and he was chosen to fix rift in 4th dimension.He has 4 powers...water(school),fire(pervert's house),he can move things without touching,i forgot how u say that word(at the end of the movie he sent jet engin from plane through portal) and superstrong power(ax in bronse mascot after he flooded school).And i don't understand why do u think that fat guy in red dress traveled with Donnie...that's nonsence.And btw it wasn't halloween costum,the guy showed up twice before halloween.
1st Ending explanation: No comment,i don't even get what are u trying to say there.But yeah,u are right,Donnie has to send engine back through the time to kill himself to fix rift in 4th dimension(which leaves us only one answer...Donnie was destined to die October.2 and he didn't which created rift and tangent universe was there to fix it...remember?can't change the destiny if we travel's in god's channel) and to save the world.
2nd Ending:If Donnie had stayed in bed first time,jet engin would never fell down because Donnie wouldn't send it back in time.Realise that by Frank weaking up Donnie that night he made the jet engin fell down,otherwise Donnie would never realise that rift in 4th dimension created and tangent universe started and he would stay in his bed,sleeping about fucken his family and world would be over in couple of weeks.That also means that rift in 4th dimension wasn't created by anything then by Donnie's destiny to die which didn't fullfill.
3rd Explanation: this was already discussed,try to check page 19.or my explanation of movie which is like 2-3 pages back.I
I hope u had more luck with Matrix....haha;)
>>By LiveForChange (Thursday, 22 Apr 2004 05:06)
Gretchen:
Moment where Donnie came home and his family is hugging and he's just standing there alone is when his father was leaving the city.He felt left out and sad,because it seemed like he's not even important and his family would be happy even without him.Remember,that his relationship with his family wasn't good but it was getting better and better in tangent universe....u can find out about this in deleted scenes on DVD where is also discussion between Donnie and his father(which i think should have been definetly in movie).
Cherita was not an angel,she just had a crush on Donnie and the name on her textbook proves it.
When is Donnie being hypnotised (s/p) and he sees Frank,he's in transe.So after he weaks up from it he doesn't remember anything.Frank's role is to guide Donnie through tangent universe so he realise in the end what he has to do.Yeah,he ment Gretchen,even if he didn't really understand why or when is it gonna happen.Same with the sky....Donnie realises part of what he has to do at the halloween party when he looks through the gretchen wormhole and he decides to go to grandma's house.Then later on,when he's driving a car he realises everything.
Even if i think everything was caused only by Donnie's destiny to die on October 2nd which didn't fullfill is kinda not want me to believe in it but i see no other explanation.There must be something behind it all...and anyway,the movie kinda doesn't make sence at all,which me and highlander discussed page,2 or 3 back(especially Frank weaking up Donnie,which couldn't happen unless Frank dies and Frank can't die unless Donnie was woken up by him).
>>By LiveForChange (Thursday, 22 Apr 2004 05:26)
Wow, I think you guys may be overanalyzing the film, juuuuust a bit. I mean, sure there is some confusion, and I understand everyone trying to explain it all, but it's one of those movies, like Mulholland Dr. or Vanilla Sky that you should just let wash over you. You don't have to understand EVERYthing. But keep trying, I'm sure you guys'll get it someday.
By the way, Smurfs are asexual.
>>By The Walrus (Friday, 23 Apr 2004 17:08)
isn't the movie basically one that u really can't understand bcuz everything just keeps circling around, i mean all the events r so connected that by removing one of the events from the equation would change the whole movie?
what the walrus said is true, u dont have 2 understand everything... ull just hurt urself lol
>>By Cookie8Monster (Saturday, 24 Apr 2004 02:05)
Look live for chnge whoever you r if u think u know the movie so much then at the end when gretchen says what happenend the boy says "my neighbour he died" then he says something that you can't hear I swear it is in another language I even turnd up the volume to max he says something u can't understand
>>By The puzzler (Saturday, 24 Apr 2004 22:02)
Sorry puzzler,i didn't mean to sound like i'm saying that i'm smarter than u are.All i'm saying is that your explanation is false
Anyway...
Gretchen arrives on bike...
Grethchen: Hey,what's going on?
Little boy:Horrible accident.My neighbor...got killed.
Gretchen:What happend?
Little boy:Got smooshed by a jet engine.
They are putting Donnie into a ambulance...
Gretchen:What was his name?
Little boy:Donnie.Donnie Darko.I feel bad for his family.
Gretchen:Yeah.
Gretchen and Donnie's mother look at each other...
Little boy:Did u know him?
Gretchen:No.
Gretchen waves at Donnie's mother...
Radio in a back...
Police radio: ....switch back to base.All units should be back on base frequency.
The movie ends with showing Gretchen and little boy and his lips are not moving so he couldn't say anything else.I also have substitles....so,yeah.
>>By LiveForChange (Sunday, 25 Apr 2004 06:57)
Gretchen Ross is an Manipulated Dead, so she must know what has happend before, right? It says in the philosophy of time travel that "The Manipulated Dead will manipulate the Living Receiver using the Fourth Dimensional Construct (see Appendices A and B)", so. Gretchen and Frank (they are the manipulated deads) helps Donnie find the gun so that he can kill Frank after that he had ran over Gretchen. Wich leaves Donnie with no choise but to transport the artifact back and stay in bed so he dies and Gretchen will not die! "What if you could go back in time and take all those hours of pain and darkness and replace them with something better" (says Gretchen). So Gretchen gave Donnie hints about what he would have to do later on, all the time..
This makes more and more sense to me :)
And The Walrus:
No, I don't think that we're overanalyzing this movie cause.. It's not a movie "that you should just let wash over you" , it's so much better when you're starting to get it all.. And, it makes the movie much more beautiful to.. But if you don't want to analyze it, you don't have to read all these posts and you don't have to write anything here eather, cause you don't have to..
>>By Gretchen (Sunday, 25 Apr 2004 20:56)
Gretchen:
I don't think she's manipulated death since there was only one and that was Frank.There was also just one Gretchen(tangent one) and 2 Franks(manipulated death and tangent one) and Gretchen died only in order for Frank to die.And Donnie didn't sacrafice himself only for Gretchen but for the whole universe...and yeah,she gave him hint.But so did teachers....i think they were more like manipulated living and Frank was true manipulated death who lead him.I mean,if there weren't Frank he would have never flooded the school and talk to Gretchen.
>>By LiveForChange (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 01:08)
Wow, Gretchen, calm down. Easy there. Didn't mean to get your hair in a tangle. Jeepers. All I'm saying is, it seems a little, well, pointless to try and figure every single detail out. I mean, it's a really great movie (I have 2 t-shirts from it, if that helps). But it just works on its own twistedly beautiful terms. No need to beat the thing to death trying to find answers. That's all I'm saying. Now, play nice.
>>By The Walrus (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 15:38)
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