Donnie Darko
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>>By Cootee (Friday, 9 May 2003 19:33)
All,
I've read all of the postings above and there are some great comments.
Here is mine, you may not like it!
The whole film is a paradox. Whichever solution you think of, there is another that contradicts it. The more you think of a certain point, the less credibility it has.
The answer to the film is this ; "there is no answer"
Does anybody else agree, or does anybody have a singular solution that resolves the film with no loose ends?
Cheers all
Geezer
>>By Geezer (Sunday, 11 May 2003 14:23)
hey, i just started watchin this movie again. and i thought a really cool thing i missed the first few times was franks car driving by donnie in his opening bikeride scene. one of many trippy things in this movie... another thing tho, ive come up wit some ideas bout the movie..... but one thing that never seems to make sense is the chubby oriental girl. what the hell? anybody have any ideas bout the significance of that character cuz i be stumped
>>By dirty sanchez (Monday, 12 May 2003 06:20)
Phew! I just read thru ALL PREVIOUS POSTINGS!
First of all, thank you and congrats to so many of you for your theories and solutions. Brilliant. This is a film I know I will be thinking about for a long time. And I agree with the poster who said that for every answer, there is a contradiction. Hmm...rather like life, no? The neverending philosophical discussion of ABSOLUTE TRUTH? Is there any? Doesn't the film ask us to consider this same question?
From Echo & the Bunnymen's KILLING MOON:
"Fate
Up against your will..."
For centuries, the discussion over "fate" vs. "free-will" has raged forth. Are we truly pre-destined, no matter what? Or does the presence of free-will add a "chaos factor" to the path? I do love that the path of the discussion on this board has mirrored the central theme of the film.
Also, something I thought of regarding the old Deus ex Machina:
I just watched ADAPTATION last nite. Written by the screenwriter of 'Being John Malkovich' and definitely playing with ideas of self (he births a cinematic twin brother as a nemesis/guide of sorts). Anyway, there is a point in the film where this screenplay seminar dude tells Charlie "And for Godsakes, whatever you do, Don't put in a Deus ex Machina!"
The trite "And then he woke up and realized it was all a dream..." is one of the most loathed and pansy Deus ex Machinas used in literature and screenwriting. I thought that the Darko director was also poking a little bit of fun at his OWN use of the Deus ex Machina in the script. That while, yes, all theories of time travel and dimensions follow and Kelly wants us to ponder the theories postited in the film and on the website, Donnie's character is still IN BED just prior to the final tragic event. Is the director making a joke at all about the "it was all just a dream" way out that many before him have taken? Just a thought...
p.s. I live in L.A. and Gary Jules performs often at the Hotel Cafe here in Hollywood. Gary is the guy singing the beautiful cover of 'Mad World' at the end of the film. He's incredible live.
--Cin
>>By Cinnamon Girl (Monday, 12 May 2003 12:41)
One more thing...the rather blatant "Alice in Wonderland" similarities are not lost on me (following the rabbit and all, "mirror worlds").
I just noticed this from the website obit for Kenneth Monnitoff:
"He is survived by his wife, Karen Pomeroy Monnitoff, an English professor at UVA, and their two children, Alice (7) and Mary (4)."
I may be overtired and reading too much into things, however. :)
>>By Cinnamon Girl (Monday, 12 May 2003 12:55)
OOOH! Alice in Wonderland comparisons! I like!!
-Shady Lane (Monday, 12 May 2003 23:51)
Also in the Cunning Visions thing, the lady winks seductively to the camera, and you can see the mic hanging down. It's creepy how you can find Frank wherever Donnie's under his influence, i.e.: standing against the wall in the school when he's about to flood it.
>>By Then (Wednesday, 14 May 2003 12:23)
Such an amazin film! readin all ur posts and goin on the website has really taken it to a higher level, a new presendent has been set for depth in a film, nothing has ever compared to it!
One thing though aside from all the science, donnie did some really admirable things while in the tangent universe, his speech in the school, in the class room with the fear - love line and especially the torching of jim cunninghams house. It didnt sit right with me that he had to effectively erase all those things when he sorted out the time parradox. However on the site u find out that cunningham killed himself, does anybody think that this was because he was left with the memory of being found out or was it just guilt and he would have done it anyway?
>>By jimmy not so cool (Wednesday, 14 May 2003 17:19)
Well what a crazy little system of theories this movie-writer has come up with to support this masterpiece.
The theories explained in the book by Roberta Sparrow (shown on the DVD of this movie, as well as many deleted scenes that will explain much more than the original movie did) make perfect sense to me. However I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out how everything corresponds to the actual movie, thus I have a question or two.
First of all, how was the tangent universe created in the first place? It seems to me like the tangent universe was actually caused by Frank (when Frank caused Donnie to get out of bed when he should have died seems to be where the Tangent universe branches from the Primary universe). However the whole reason why Frank calls Donnie out of bed was to STOP the creation of the Tangent universe and prevent the collapse of both universes. That doesn't make sense does it?
Or perhaps Frank awakes Donnie because he is a fit subject for a Living Reciever (remember Frank says to Donnie on his first visit "I've been watching you." which implies he was making sure Donnie was a good subject), and that's why Donnie is saved from the jet engine. But this still leaves the question: How was the tangent universe created and how did Donnies death cause the tangent universe to disappear into oblivion as opposed to collapsing to destroy both universes?
These are my main questions. Once those are explained to me I will completely grasp the whole movie.
Here's another question that doesn't explain much about the barebones of the plot but it's an interesting little tidbit. It seems like Donnie doesn't shoot Frank for what would be the obvious reason: he was pissed at Frank for hitting Gretchen. But wouldn't Donnie know that none of it mattered once he completed his task? And having read Roberta Sparrow's book, wouldn't he know that he was meant to shoot Frank so that Frank would become a Manipulated Dead capable of contacting Donnie through the 4th dimensional construct and causing the chain of events to set in motion? In which case he would see a reason for Gretchen's death and also for Frank's death, and therefore wouldn't have killed Frank for the sole purpose of revenge for the fallen Gretchen (he wouldn't have cared). So my question is do you think Donnie shot Frank with a cold logical mind or a heated emotional mind? Did he know he was sending Frank to the 4th dimentsion? He almost seemed to have a smile on his face when he shot Frank.
Just my two bits.
>>By Granto from Atlanto (actually from Sacramento, CA (Friday, 16 May 2003 02:15)
Its 2 am, and i only managed to read the first 3 or 4 pages of discussion, and there are so many issues that i havent figured out. The one im dwelling on at the moment is Donnie laughing at the end., which has been discussed a fair amount earlier on. Does anyone else think its plausable that the reason he is laughing is because he got to look back on all the traumas and tribulations of his time in the tangent universe, and replace them with happy thoughts and memories as he discussed with gretchen?
>>By FearAndLove (Friday, 16 May 2003 02:45)
I believe that the tangent universe may have been created when the jet engine went through the wormhole and traveled back in time. The only problem with that theory is that, how does sending it back again fix the universe?
Donnie dying didn't save the tangent universe, I believe sending the jet engine back in time saved the universe. In the end Donnie chose to die, because if he lived all of the bad stuff would happen again.
That's what I think, right know anyway.
Hope that helps
>>By Dosangh (Saturday, 17 May 2003 02:59)
There is so much symbolism and so many different theories that seem to fit with this movie
I read about the first six pages but I have this to say.
"Why do you wear that costume" Why do you wear that stupid mansuit"
Earlier you guys were talking about this and also discussing how Donnie was sort of a Jesus figure. Who was Jesus? God in human form. "Stupid mansuit"
I'll add one more theory to the pool even though I don't feel this was his intent at all, but I'm just showing an example of how this movie can easily be interpreted in other ways. At first I saw this movie as a metaphor for some disease that has a temporary fix, such as Alzheimers. Let's say this is what Donnie has. The Rabbit represents the doctor. He's Scary, but he's your friend. The Doctor gives him medication that fixes Donnie's Alzheimers (Rabbit saves him from the engine). This medication generally works for about a month and then the patient returns to their orginal state which is why the Rabbit(doctor)warns him of 28 days. Darko is given tempoary happiness(Gretchen) whatis girlfriend represents. As time runs out and Darko's body no longer accepts the medication his happiness goes away, which is when his girlfriend is killed. Who does Darko blame for taking this away? Frank (he doctor)and he kills him. It is not necessarily the doctor's fault,which is why Grandma is in the road. Darko constantly rejected the Love and Fear garbage which represented his body rejecting the medication. In the end he is killed by the engine because the Doctor (Frank) only tempoarily saved him from Alzheimars. He goes back to is confused state which is why now no one recognizes him again.
This movie can go some may different ways and is constantly analzyed too deeply from what I've seen. If you ask me I don't think the director had a certain one true answer and left it open for debate.
I'll leave you with this. "You can't just lump these things into only two categories, it is not that easy" (Darko on Love and Fear)
After hearing this it kind of reminded me of this movie and how everyone is flaming each other and claiming one side when it's clear that there is really too much going on to just do that.
>>By B (Sunday, 18 May 2003 05:19)
The DVD sell through comes out in the UK tommorow.
I think is has all the extras of the R1 disk.
>>By Grimly Fiendish (Sunday, 18 May 2003 11:39)
Here are some of my thoughts on this movie, I've been trying to put all together or 6hrs after watching it, GREAT!!
The engine or "artifact" which started the original Tangent Universe, had fallen from the plane which was destroyed as the Tangent universe started to collapse in on itself. Thats why no plane wreakage was found and the engine was identical to engine still on the "Primary Universe" plane. It sounds impossible until you think of time in the way that Stephen Hawkings describes in 4 dimensions of space and time, instead of the linear concept of time that we on earth possess. That way it is possible for things in the future (which haven't happened yet) to directly influence the past,and cause a paradox,which would destroy the spacetime continium.(Dr Emmett Browns words not mine!!)
The whole meeting of and falling in love with Gretchen and the burning of Cunninghams house, was setup to ensure that Donnie would use his power as the Living Receiver to send the artifact back in time and "save" Frank,Gretchen and his Mom and sis, in primary Universe even though they had died in the Tangent universe. This is described in Sparrows book as an Ensurance Trap.
By the time donnie had raced to Robertas house he understood very much in his mind what needed to be done. That is why after shooting Frank, Donnie shouted to Franks frightened friend to "Go home and tell your family everything will be alright now"
As for robertas role I dont think she had been a previous living receiver, on reading the foreword to her book, it says
"If I am still alive when the events foretold in these pages occur, then I hope that you will find me before it is too late."
As if something like this had never happened before. So it is possible that she had a prophecy about all of this. After all many people have had prophecys about the end of the world for hundreds of years and been classed as "nutcases", Roberta exactly!
>>By Macca1960 (Monday, 19 May 2003 07:42)
you guys really havent taken notice of me, look i want to put you down a strait path everything not in the movie and directors cut is completely irrelivant to the film, austin was really close to the real plot and yes it is allot simpler than you guys think, please drop the tangant universe idea and manipulated dead etc. the story is really quite basic its not another blade runner like you all seem to think it is, let me give you a hint just like in all great twist films ie the sixth sense the opening scene is the anser, take notice that donnie is at the very same hill he is quite neer to the end. hoepfully you guys can discover the real plot revolutions before the plat x dvd comes out.peace
>>By Steve mathardi (Monday, 19 May 2003 11:23)
The short book supposedly written by Roberta Sparrow was actually written by Richard Kelly or one of the writers for the film. So how could you forget the whole idea of a tangent universe and manipulated living? We didn't just make it up...
First of all I'd like to say that it makes no sense that the jet engine caused the tangent universe to be created. If that were the case then why did Frank wake Donnie up and tell him anything? If Donnie hadn't been awaken life would've went on like normal (or as normal as Donnie's life can be) because Donnie wouldn't have known enough to send the jet engine through the portal and the tangent universe would never have been created in the first place. Frank would've been better off just leaving Donnie in bed. So again I ask what caused the tangent universe to open? And second why does sending the jet engine through close it up?
Now perhaps this is the case: The jet engine originally went through a random wormhole just on accident in the primary universe. Once this happens, it kills Donnie who turns out to be piece of the puzzle that leads to the engine going through the wormhole in the first place. Donnie dying keeps the engine from going through the wormhole, and therefore Donnie lives, etc. This creates a very nasty paradox which causes the primary universe to split into two: The primary universe which is currently stuck in a timeloop switchback (outcome a causes outcome b causes outcome a etc.), and the unstable tangent universe where time acts a bit differently (people who die within the tangent universe can travel through time within the 4th dimension). This is why I believe Donnie is the living reciever--he's the indirect cause of this paradox and the tangent universe. Frank contacts Donnie in the tangent universe to try get Donnie to snap the primary universe out of it's timeloop and get time marching on again as normal before the tangent universe collapses, which is the only hope to get the primary universe running again. This causes Donnie to do everything needed to not only send the artifact through the wormhole, but also to shoot Frank in the head which allows Frank to contact Donnie in the first place. Now this creates a paradox as well--How would Frank have died if he wouldn't have contacted Donnie? Franks death causes his ability to contact Donnie which causes Franks death, etc. Now this paradox I believe is not time-threatening because it allows time to still act in a nice stream....just a looped stream (a causes a causes a etc. - as opposed to - a causes b causes a). The switchback I believe is what stops time from functioning. Anyways Frank guides Donnie to do what he needs to do to ensure that the artifact still makes it through the wormhole. The engine smashes through the wormhole connecting the universes and pops out in the primary universe, killing Donnie and stopping once and for all the terrible timeloop switchback. No longer is primary Donnie dying as a result of the primary engine which itself is only there because of primary Donnie, but he is now dying from the tangent engine which is a completely different object than the primary engine (primary engine could stay in service for 10 years after Donnie's death and never go through a wormhole) sent through by a completely different entity- tangent Donnie. Poof....no more paradox. The tangent world no longer exists (except for the tangent artifact which is a complete separate entity from the corresponding primary object-the engine on the plane that is no longer going to crash), the switchback is stopped (Donnie now definitely dies, obviously, and the primary plane doesn't need to crash to cause him to die), and the natural flow of cause and effect continues to stream forward. Time is saved and the world will no longer end thanks to the artifact sent through by the no longer existing tangent Donnie to kill primary Donnie (hence the importance of the smith who was impaled by the sword he never forged).
Seems like a far fetched theory when basing it on everything discussed in Roberta Sparrow's book, but this is the only thing I could come up with to explain how the tangent universe was created and how the artifact stops it from collapsing. I'd really like to hear some other theories about how else everything happened, and I REALLY would like some responses to my questions: How was the tangent universe created and how does the engine stop it from being created or stop it from collapsing?
Anyways I better go to bed before I fall asleep on the keyboard.
>>By Granto from Atlanto (Monday, 19 May 2003 15:26)
OK, I kind of understand all this about the Tangent Universe, Manipulated Dead and Living, etc... and I know this has been asked before but I really don't get why Gretchen and the boy with her (her brother?) wave at Rose at the end? And the fat guy in the tracksuit (lol, he is so hilarious) - is he just for comic effect? If so, it works - I still get laughing fits over him.
I love this movie - but please explain these aspects to me.... :)
>>By Fran (Monday, 19 May 2003 20:06)
Here's some interesting things I found at Amazon
Schwartzman, Jason was originally to play Donnie, but was replaced by Gyllenhaal, Jake.
The movie was shot in 28 days, exactly the time-span of the movie itself, and on a budget of under $5 million.
The scene where Donnie - clad in a skeleton Halloween costume and hooded gray sweatshirt - bike-rides to Roberta Sparrow's house with his friends is an obvious homage to E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982). That film featured Barrymore, Drew, who is this film's executive producer and co-star.
In the beginning of the film, when Donnie is walking back home in the morning, his mother is reading Stephen King's "IT", which is about a small town tormented by the epitome of children's fears that usually goes about in the guise of a clown. Later, towards the end of the film, a character is hit by a car. The passenger gets out and is dressed like a clown.
In the scene at the house party someone is shown jumping on a trampoline with a Reagan mask on. This is taken from a photo of the journalist Hunter S. Thompson wearing a Reagan mask while jumping on a trampoline.
In the film Donnie refers to "Married... with Children" (1987) and, more specifically, Applegate, Christina during conversations about sex with his therapist. The script initially called for Donnie's fantasies to be about Milano, Alyssa. This had to be changed however when Kelly was denied the legal rights to reference her in this manner.
In the theater scene, Richard Kelly originally intended to have Donnie and Gretchen going to see C.H.U.D. (1984). However, there were problems with finding out who owned the rights to the movie. Finally, Sam Raimi came to the rescue, by allowing Kelly to use and distort footage from Evil Dead (1982), free of charge.
There's some debate over who said "cellar door" was the most beautiful sounding phrase in the English language. In the DVD commentary, writer/director Richard Kelly (II) says he thinks it was 'Edgar Allen Poe' but this contradicts the dialogue in which Karen Pomeroy attributes the line to a linguist. On the other hand, 'J.R.R. Tolkien' was a linguist, and Humphrey Carpenter tells us on page 56 of "Tolkien: A Biography" that he did make such an assertion about "cellar door".
>>By B (Tuesday, 20 May 2003 00:03)
I,m from the UK and subsequently DD has only just been available for rental. I watched it for the first time on Sunday and spent my whole monday reading This discussion site, and now thanks to you I now owe the video shop £3.00 cause I had to go back and watch it again........and again........and I shall be watching it agian tonight so the dept will proberly be more like £6.00!
I do think that some of you may be reading a little too mutch into this film, although it is a masterpiece of cinematography, I believe that at the heart it is very simple. It is mearly a representation of Donnie darko's afterlife and an easing of his greatest fear (diying alone)
>>By Hogroast (Tuesday, 20 May 2003 10:41)
Theres been some debate as to who Roberta Sparrow is and how she knows what she does. My theory is that she is just another part of Frank's scheme to ensure Donnie returns the artifact. Frank has the ability to time travel, therefore he could have gone back to the 40s(?) when Sparrow wrote the book and given her a similar experience to Donnie with visions telling her that Donnie will write to her and when he does she must stand in the road so that Gretchen will die.
One question, if Donnie destroys the tangent universe, effectively erasing it from history then where does the artefact come from?
>>By Jay (Tuesday, 20 May 2003 11:42)
Granto if you watch the cinema credits or whenever it comes to tv youll see my name (Steve mathardi) as assistant choreographer and my cousin who co-produced sean McKittrick, but i can honestly tell you what you do not see in the film has no relivence, forget the sillly star track universe ideas, richard put those in after finding out at a last minute the film was most apreciated by intense sci-fi fans they are a means of satisfying you people, trust me they have no relevence whatsoever.peace
>>By Steve mathardi (Tuesday, 20 May 2003 14:02)
Has no one spotted the painting hanging in Cunningham's house? I think this explains Frank's motivations. Frank is not God's messenger. He is leading Donnie down a path that is not God's and has his own selfish motivations.
David
>>By D (Tuesday, 20 May 2003 17:06)
Read the book by Roberta Sparrow and listen to the movie with the director and Jake talking and you will understand just about everything
He throws in a lot of other things that isn't explained but the main point of the movie is shown whehter ya like it or not =)
All the talk about the Living Reciever and Manipulated Dead is correct. However, the Director in the end admits that any movie about time travel creates a paradox, which is why time travel is not physically possible.
>>By B (Tuesday, 20 May 2003 19:48)
Howdy,whoever said this film sets a new precedent for depth of ideas etc. is spot on.Having read most of the postings the only thing i haven't seen mentioned is the signifigance(or not) of the weird fat guy in the tracksuit who appears twice
1)when donnie tries to kiss gretchen initially("we've been going together two weeks ....")
2)when donnie opens the door to his two buddies at his party
Its probably nothin' but everything else seems to have some sort of signifigance in this absolute classic mindfuck of a movie!!
PS- is this Richard Kellys' debut as a director/writer
>>By johnnie two times (Tuesday, 20 May 2003 20:58)
It is indeed Richard Kelly's debut, pretty impressive, huh?
The guy in the red is from the FAA, the government agency who are investigating the jet engine. They're really confused as to where the artefact came from and so theyre following Donnie. Not of great importance, but still, nice to know...
>>By Jay (Wednesday, 21 May 2003 00:43)
One theory I came up with, (I'm not saying it's right or wrong) is that Frank is actually Satan and Gretchen is God. Satan knows that the universe cannot exist with good on its own or evil on its own. Not satisfied with this revelation he decides to destroy the entire universe, so he takes advantage of an unstable fourth dimension or whatever, saves Donnies life and uses him and the people around him to kill Gretchen (AKA God), and himself, which would result in the universes demise. Frank can only use Donnie like he does if he offers to save his life in return for his 'services'. Because Donnie is the only person he can 'use' he is also the only person he can use to setup up the whole jet engine thing (this a paradox, I know). Before Donnie meets Frank for the first time he is quite moody, he insults his family and stuff. I think he knows what Frank is offering him when he says 'wake up', but he doesn't care because he is depressed and recless. It's only Gretchens (Gods) influence (remember she goes on about how beutiful the world can be) that makes him realise he made the wrong decision. Donnie doesn't actually travel back in time, the movie is just showing you the two very different outcomes resulting from just the two different choices he had.
Jesus, I don't even know if that makes sense. My head hurts.
>>By Dexter (Wednesday, 21 May 2003 02:41)
hey b look I did allot of the cinemotography for this film and I know about richards ideas and i can tell you there is no living receiver or manipulated dead they where added in later on everyone else who worked on the film and helped richard bring his ideas to the screen knows those ideas where completely irrelivant there is no ultimate message behind the film if you want to argue email richard or the film adress with the title steve mathardi and ask richar himself what the relevance of those ideas are and then you can understand.peace
>>By Steve mathardi (Wednesday, 21 May 2003 10:33)
this isint richards debut at all you guys he has written many movies before but only two made it to film and they didnt go anwhere, hes entered three of his movies into festivals and he struck lucky with donnie darko as they loved it but it isint his debu.peace
>>By Steve mathardi (Wednesday, 21 May 2003 10:37)
Shut up already.
>>By Then (Wednesday, 21 May 2003 12:13)
Why does Cunningham have a picture of Frank hanging up in his house? He must have been one of Cunningham's victims. Which is why he wanted Cunningham's house burned down.
>>By D (Wednesday, 21 May 2003 12:39)
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